North Western Ohio

[kohmsford]

This is a shout out to anyone in the Northwest Ohio area. Anyone within driving distance of Toledo Ohio looking to get started or looking for a training partner send me a message.

I study mainly Joachim Meyer, but I'm more than willing to drill anything that anyone is interested in.

Thanks.

[Sara Leonard]

I live below the Akron/Canton area. I'm very interested in becoming an ARMA member, but only know one other person who may be interested, so at this time I couldn't start a study group. I would like to associate with an established group within driving distance and I'm investigating my options.

I'm highly interested in all kinds of medieval warfare, and have long been dissatisfied with what I've seen in books and movies, for the most part. I always thought something about it was wrong. I was elated to find this site. I have no martial or combat training or experience. I'm simply used to hard outdoor work and have a job that most wouldn't think of as a female task (heavy cleaning and upkeep in a nursing facility).

I'm mostly unsure how to get started. Should I start learning forms on my own? Practice with my one interested friend until we could perhaps form a study group? Seek an established group even if it's 3 or 4 hours away? I have a day job but I'm neither very mobile nor particularly possessed of extra money. (I'd have to borrow a car and couldn't afford even a monthly trip if it was more than a couple hours distant.) Thank you, everyone working to revive this art, and thanks in advance for any help.

SML

[kohmsford]

Hi there SML.

Well you can go about it many different ways. I would personally grab that friend that is interested, find some source material (books, websites, etc.) and start trying to figure out the basics.
Start with the guards (forms, postures, whatever you want to call them) and the footwork. Then advance from there.

It certainly can't hurt to meet up with an established group to help you get a jump start on your studying. Then you can take the information you gain from that and start applying it back into what you are studying.

I'm in a position over here in Toledo, where I'm all alone... so I practice against a pell.

[Sara Leonard]

According to what I gleaned from this site, most of what's commonly available on true medieval sword fighting is either incorrect or oversimplified... So is there an ARMA - approved starting manual? I wouldn't want to start off wrong, because 'an error in the beginning is an error indeed.'

I looked up composite practice swords, such as from Cold Steel, and I could afford them. However, some of the reviews were unfavorable regarding weight and balance point. I'm concerned about any training with them affecting how I learn the forms, which may become an issue later. Is it more important simply to practice forms with a weighty sword-shaped object and worry about proper balance later?

Toledo is about 2 hours away from where I live and I've actually been there a few times before.

[David Kite]

Hi Sara,

Definitely I would suggest meeting up with an established group as often as possible. Even if it is only once every few months, that is better than not at all. The earlier the better, because that will help ensure you get started on the right foot.

Also, I agree that if your friend is willing and interested, then take advantage of the opportunity to study together. While our art doesn't have forms as such (I'm thinking in terms of kata), you should start practicing the basic strikes (the guards will naturally happen, believe it or not), and begin working through the manuals with your friend. Martial effectiveness and the proper mindset are most important.

And of course, if you ever have any questions, we are all here to help.

David Kite
ARMA in IN

[kohmsford]

I don't believe there is an ARMA approved starting manual.

If you have a system in mind I (or someone else here) can certainly help you get started.
As for the synthetics, some people like them, some don't. They are VERY slippery, and don't work well for practicing certain techniques (binding, etc.) but for practicing forms, anything is fine. Right now you just want to get used to having a sword like object in your hands, be it a wooden waster, synthetic, steel, whatever.

Hey if you're ever over this way, let me know and I might be free to meet you someplace.

[David Kite]

Hi Sara,

We don't really have an "approved starting manual." Many of our sources can of course be found on our website in translation for free. There are quite a few published modern translations, but if disposable income is an issue, you may be just as well to wait. Another source of free translations of sourcework is the Wiktenauer at http://www.wiktenauer.com. Where you go from there more or less depends on your interests.

Unfortunately, the Cold Steel swords are crap. Of course the best training tool to get would be a good steel blunt, but a very good and quite acceptable starting tool is what we call a "waster," which is just a wooden sword. A company known as New Stirling Arms is known for making good quality items, in terms of workmanship, wood, and handling. http://newstirlingarms.com/shop/ It is actually better to start with a better training tool than a crap one. Ones like Cold Steel will not perform like a historical weapon, and will not only make it very difficult to execute proper technique, but to even understand proper technique.

Hope that helps, and welcome aboard!

David Kite
ARMA in IN

[Sara Leonard]

Thank you, David. My goal is to find a group, for sure. I have no preconceptions other than knowing that I know very little. I'd prefer to have someone more knowledgeable correct me as I go, and I learn best by doing.

I had a feeling the Cold Steel swords were inadequate. Thanks for the confirmation.

It's probably a necessity for my friend and I to compare each other to the forms (or whatever they're properly called) so we can say 'that doesn't look right...' and try to fix it, though I dare say that isn't nearly so good as being with someone who actually knows what they're doing.

I will check out those links - thank you much.

[Sara Leonard]

Also, I have no idea which 'discipline' I wish to pursue, because I know nothing about any of them, only that light straight swords and unarmored combat appeal to me most. I don't believe I'd do all that well heavily weighted down.

I've dabbled in bullwhip and bow and used a flimsy but sharp scimitar on nuisance animals (humanely, for the purpose of protecting our chickens), and that is the extent of my experience. Besides having done the killing in the butchering of said chickens.

I mention this only because it quickly taught me that piercing flesh effectively, much less bone, is far more difficult and takes far more control than is commonly portrayed. I'd love to believe that a katana in the hands of a master can shear through a man in one stroke... But that belief started to fade when I learned how hard it was merely to cut the head off a chicken.

[David Kite]

Hi Sara,

As far as "disciplines" go, we tend to categorize our sources by nationality, though admittedly this becomes inaccurate and anachronistic when you look closely enough. Hence you will hear people talking about the "Germans," the "Italians," the "Bolognese," the "English," etc. If you can, I strongly recommend getting a copy of Joachim Meyer's "Art of Combat" translated by Jeffrey Forgeng; ISBN: 978-1848327788. It should run about $30 or so. He covers multiple weapons, such as longsword, rappier/sidesword, dagger, dussack, pole weapons, and unarmed combat, all done unarmored. He's German, and based his book on the German "system" of Johannes Liechtenauer. Other good places to start are Ringeck, who deals with Liechtenauer again, Paulus Hector Mair, and a manuscript many people refer to as the "Doebringer manuscript" (MS 3227a), all of which should have translations to work from on the Wiktenauer site.

The Germans are the ones we have the most sources available as far as quantity, and also the ones for which we have the most English translations. The Italians, I admit I am less familiar with, except for a couple of rapier sources. For the English sources, we have very few surviving ones, apart from George Silver and Joseph Swetnam. Both are very good to read, though Silver is much more theoretical and opinionated. Both also require a little effort to get past the archaic English.

If you're interested in rapier, (another light straight pointy sword) though, I would recommend Giganti as a good one to start with, and also Fabris and Capo Ferro. Giganti is available as "Venetian Rapier" here: http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/ and Capo Ferro is titled, " The Art and Practice of Fencing." Fabris is apparently and unfortunately hard to come by. When printed in modern editions, our sources tend to have limited and small print runs, so get them while you can.

Ultimately, you can start wherever you want, but I find the above sources to be good starting places, plus, of course, getting assistance from more experienced practitioners.

David Kite
ARMA in IN

[Sara Leonard]

I may need to spend some serious time browsing a dictionary because just a light dive in has left me like this :

I'm even something of an English buff, but this was the passage that made my eyes cross:

Mark when you will drive the Crooked hew then you must always therewith give openings, and that undertake thus: when you hew him with the Crooked hew from your right side, or bind on his sword, you are the while open with the left side. Is he then clever and will hew you from the sword after the opening, and you will with nimbleness make him confused, then remain with your sword on his, and follow his sword thereon after, and Wind in the point to his face, and work in before you with the War, that is, with the Winding to the openings. Then he becomes confused before you, so that he truthfully does not know which end he shall protect before you against hews or stabs

[kohmsford]

Oh I know that feeling haha.

Each of the different disciplines tend to have their own names for things (obviously, since they are generally from different cultures/languages). It can be a bit overwhelming at first, but it will come to you.

Anything in particular you need help with just shout out, the forum is a wealth of knowledge and is more than willing to help.

[Sara Leonard]

So I'm in the German section for the moment...

For instance, what is a bind? Locking blades? Or grabbing your opponent's sword with your hand? Or something else?

I'm guess that 'from the roof' means an overhand swing, or at least a blow from above-?

[kohmsford]

A "bind" is the moment your two swords collide. With sharp weapons they will actually sort of stick to each other or Bind. The most basic bind is when two Zornhau (or diagonal) strikes collide. I've found a picture to try and illustrate this.


They're are a few other differing opinions on this topic, but in the basic term that is what they are talking about in the German Traditions.

"from the roof" is actually a guard or Posture as Meyer calls them. It does essentailly mean "From above". It comes from the Posture of Vom Tag.


This is of course a very quick and dirty explanation of these ideas.

[David Kite]

A bind is when the sword's make contact with each other (or for that matter whenever you or your sword makes contact with any part of your opponent or their weapon). From there comes "winding" and "feeling." Winding, simply put, is when you move your weapon to find the most opportune moment to strike your opponent, usually from a bind. Feeling is how you know when that moment arrives, and also allows you to interpret your opponent's intentions, depending upon whether they bind hard or soft (in terms of pressure), or strong or weak (in terms of leverage, the strong of the sword is the part of the blade nearer the hilt, whereas the weak is the part nearer the tip). Actually understanding these concepts comes from doing, as well as knowing how and when to apply them.

"From the roof" is one of the four primary German guards. The German term is "Vom Tag" (or variously "Vom Dach"). From there, the most usual strike is a downward blow.

And I agree with you about that passage you quoted. While poetic to an extent, I find it unnecessarily obtuse. Actually this is a nice illustration of the importance of referencing as many different translations of the same source as possible.

As Kohmsford intimated, it will take time for this stuff to sink in and make sense, so have patience. And as he said, you are more than welcome to ask here.

David Kite
ARMA in IN