Using daggers to effectively parry larger weapons?

[Guest]

When sparring with swords, it's easy enough for me to to block, parry, etc... But I'm trying to use two (12-inch blade) daggers for my own style. Needless to say you can't exactly static block a full-on swing by a longsword or axe with a pair of light daggers. It's 100% parry and evasion.

What I was wondering is if anybody knew of any good resources on effective defensive and offensive dagger (or dagger-like weapon) tactics or styles. I can probably adapt information concerning parrying daggers, sai, and possibly tonfa, but I'm unsure. I heard that Escrima may be what I'm looking for, but I'd rather find a Western style to build off of if there's a precident.

I humbly request any and all advice in the matter.

[Guest]

Di-Grassi details in the rapier and dagger fight that a dagger may safely ward all manner of weapons if it is encountered on the first or second part. This is primarily how the left side is warded from blows and how he steps in and encounters thrust and reverse blows.

As for thrust, the dagger can be used to set aside, press down, trap per Di-Grassi, Silver or Swetnam. You may be able to ward blows double with both daggers, although once again, it is best to encounter it within the first or second part.

Parry and evasion is good, but it keeps you in the fight longer which raises your risk exponentially. I can see using a bit of silver, waiting for the attack, slipping then trapping and entering. How silver handles the variable fight may work well also. Swetnam has a lot of dagger work and it may give you ideas. I can also see using Di-Grassi, entering in the moment you have the advantage.

In all of these fights, you would need to substitute the rapier/sword for the dagger to see what you can get away with. In any case to perform any of this requires that you to act instantly without hesitation and with great courage.

Good Luck!

[Tony_Indurante]

Yare,

Just a reminder that all posters must use their real name, no nicknames or handles allowed.

[Tony_Indurante]

Part of the NTP 1.2 seminar was spent sparring longsword vs. dagger. The daggers "dis-advantage" was less than I would have imagined. The key is quickly closing distance. Also, when you are defending with the dagger, you are always using your strong and attacking the swords weak, so the dagger really has an advantage there. That said, I'll take the sword anyway.

[Guest]

Thanks for the information. I don't suppose there's a way to change my username short of reapplying, eh?

Yes... I too enjoy the extra margin of error a nice long sword provides. Still, I prefer daggers as they are concealable and able to be used in areas without a lot of room to move around or swing weapons. Stealth and concealability are important, as well as being able to ward off blows from swords, or baseball bats, or pipes, or whatever. bah. I got a whole lot of trial and error to run through.

[Tony_Indurante]

Robert,

As far as I know, you have to re-apply.

...Still, I prefer daggers as they are concealable and able to be used in areas without a lot of room to move around or swing weapons. Stealth and concealability are important, as well as being able to ward off blows from swords, or baseball bats, or pipes, or whatever....

I would agree with you on the versatility and practicality of daggers, especially if you are doing this for modern self-defense issues. I only do HEMA as a scholarly pursuit, albeit a very physical one, to learn how to use a sword/dagger/pole-arm/etc like they did in days gone by. I don't worry about the modern practicallity of the techniques nor how they could be used in a modern setting, but I am probably one of a minority within ARMA on this issue. For modern self-defense, I'm a big fan of Marc MacYoung.

That said, re-registar and welcome to the forums

[Guest]

What's going on here? Is it a matter of historical martial arts and so you can cite a source for the idea of double dagger fighting (thing which I strongly doubt), or at least define a period of fencing and a specific kind of dagger, or you're asking advices to the purpose of street fighting with an average couple of dagger you have and, I hope not, carry on yourself?
The matter is not clear and surely motivation is an important factor in deciding to give an answer or not.

[Guest]

Well, as far as I know of there is no historical example of mainstream dual-dagger fighting in the west. My desire to learn and master such a style transcends the lack of it's existance, though.

I find that the homogenous training in most arts is very ineffective at preparing the student for fighting an opponent with a style much different than thier own. Since my friends are all partial to weapons with a bit more reach than my daggers (axe, greatsword, tai chi sword), I'm more concerned with historical examples of small weapons defending against larger ones.

I, of course do not carry daggers with me in public nor do I ever plan to. However, I enjoy them for the same reason I imagine you enjoy other martial weapons. To wonder about how they were used in the days of old, and to try to recreate the styles that may have been employed.

Despite a lack of documentation, I'm sure it was studied at one point by a poor rogue or an assassin or somesuch. Most people are partial to the details of knightly combat. I, personally, have always been impressed by stealth, speed, and concealability, though it is likely the practicers of these arts were not in a position affluent enough to publish the style.

Nonetheless, I'm determined to learn whether a system currently exists or not. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

we do not have a double dagger style on record but alternatives exist, I'm talking about dagger and cloak, messer and rondel dagger, for example (excluding the sword), this said I add I do not think you should oppose axes and greatswords with daggers unless no other choice is given. It is not a matter of reach but of momentum. I would consider messer and rondel dagger or at least using big daggers like coustilles. There are better sources than sai to look into, Di Grassi does double sword, and any source for sword and dagger can help you for double big daggers or short sword to some extent, the sai is not edged, daggers are.

[Tony_Indurante]

I agree with Carlo. You may want to look at Di Grassi's section on the case of swords and see if it could be applicable. Di Grassi said his methods were for any weapon, then or in the furture.

Robert, If you are an ARMA member, there is a downloadable modern english version of the 1590 manual on the member's site, if not, there are plenty of versions out on the net.

[Guest]

Hi Folks,

For Dagger against swords or swords against dagger look at Fiore di Liberi who has several techniques for each, some very good street wise stuff.

All the best

Col

[Stuart McDermid]

Hey Stew?

What do you see as the difference between Versetzen and blocking? I don't see any difference at all.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

Stu-

Yikes! No difference? Unless we have a pretty widely different definition of "blocking" then there's a problem here.

Versetzen is displacement, and is generally achieved through striking at an opponent's weapon so as to displace it. It is both pro-active and dynamic.

Blocking, as I understand it, means some kind of static block with no deflection or displacement.

Meyer recommends the first and advises against the second. So do many others. Blocking is an "oh [censored]" defense at best, where versetzen, usually achieved through counter-cutting of some sort--is a primary defense, and is incorporated into most counters and techniques of the German school IMO. Even the Meisterhauen contain an element of displacement, but not blocking.

Oh, and I know I'm not Stew, but I couldn't resist.

Jake

[Stuart McDermid]

Jake, Stew?

I think this is best continued in a new thread.
Sorry for the temporary hijack Yare,
Stu.