Thrust grief

[Tim Merritt]

Thrusts are giving me grief—being on the receiving end. Many of what I’m seeing in the fightbooks start with getting past the point then (insert technique). Problem is, getting past the point when arms move faster than body (I think it was mentioned by someone re: Silver? But I think I also saw that Silver believes thrust and cut can be done within the same time frame). I’m looking at Talhoffer, Tafel 2, 4, 7, 16, 26, 28. Anyone having issues with this? Many interesting ideas, if they work, but in practice difficult, and dangerous. Another item is simply dealing with a thrust to your center. If you are in a position to beat it away, great, but again it’s timing. The thrust seems quicker than the cut, unless the cut is already in motion. And even the simple displacement (Talhoffer 3) is problematic. It may be displaced from your middle (say thrust from plug and displace from plug), but it’s hard to move the point totally away from your body before it strikes. In other words, if you caught it, and displaced it from striking your middle, you still take it in the side. But, if these work, the thruster then seems to be in a position of disadvantage. Any comments on ways to consistently counter the thrust to your center?

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Tim,

Silver is right, the thrust is no quicker than the cut. However a thrust often starts closer to the target than a cut creating a perception of greater speed. Certainly the hand is no slower in either configuration.

First question. Are we dealing mainly with thrusts from distance or from an engagement? 1. deals with both and 2 deals only with thrusts from distance.

1. Silver says that to deal with a thrusting attack, you must maintain narrow space on the opponent's weapon. This basically means you must lie in a guard that is very close to his line of attack. Silver doesn't mention this part but is is also an advantage to keep your hilt quite close to the point where the blades cross so as to take a leverage advantage.

I can see how this would be a problem if practicing Talhoffer who uses a sword so large that it must be used with the point on line. Leaving the point on line really ruins your true cross. Like rapier, German Longsword uses very narrow angles of engagement. To me this means you need to be alot better and more precise with what you are doing in order to protect yourself.

2. If direct thrusts from distance are your problem then there must be something wrong with what you are doing. If the opponent is attacking from a distance where he must do so in the time of the hand body and foot or feet then you should have plenty of time to respond in the time of the hand. If you pass or step back and left as you respond, you buy even more time.

Maybe you should try some English Longsword or some Fiore as both these systems are IMHO more defensively secure at the expense of offensive potential. The English system with a sword of Silver's perfect length is particularly difficult to deal with for those used to points on line a 40 inch blades as you can close around their point and finish the fight without resorting to the grapple.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Ryan Ricks]

based on my preliminary studies, here are my findings:

1. pflug seems to be a good guard to ward thrusts from. take a passing step backwards and parry as you step. then you'll end up in left pflug. from there you can counter with another stab.

2. if you stand in vom tag, and someone pre-empts you with a thrust to the chest as you are starting to make your strike, this can be difficult. i try and drop the sword down as quickly as possible for a parry. however, usually i end up parrying with the last few inches of the grip/pommel. i have small hands, so on a normal sized grip i've got considerable room. this allows me to set aside the thrust, and then counter with an oberhau.

3. i have no idea if the technique i just described is in any way valid, but it seems to work.

4. close in half swording thrusts i have no idea.

ryan

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Ryan,

If someone is trying to preempt you when you strike out of Vom Tach and is able to do so without covering the line of attack then you must have been attacking in false times.

It is VERY important to present a threat before committing your body into distance by attacking in true times. This does mean you can't swing the sword as fast as your arms will let you but on the other hand allows you to change the angle of your attack dramatically mid cut to deceive defences.

In closing, if this is happening to you regularly then you either has an opponent who is willing to commit suicide rather than defend himself (not realistic behaviour in a real fight) or you attacking in false time.
I find video footage is the best way to track whether or not you are doing this. Taping your sparring is a great idea that we put into practice regularly.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Ryan Ricks]

so, in essence, i should start the strike by moving my arms before i actually begin the passing step forward?

someone here was saying something like "First the hands, then the body, then the feet."

is that how the timing goes?


presently i begin moving my arms and taking the step at the same time. my practice partner was standing in alber, and realized a pre-emptive stab might work. so we drilled with that for a bit. not something that happens often.

[Stuart McDermid]

You got it Ryan. You can start moving the arm and body at the same time providing the body movement is slow enough that the threat is presented before your "squishy bits" are.

It also helps to deal with counterthrusters if you circle via a crosstep (ie if you are left foot forward then take a pace to the right with the left foot thereby crossing the feet before attacking with a pass of the right foot.) and then attack as this forces an opponent to re-align their point before they can use it.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Webmaster]

Personally, for a stab to the middle nothing works quite like a great suck reflex with a fall-away cut to the arms, but maybe that's just me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Stuart McDermid]

In defence, I wholeheartedly agree that countercutting is the way to go Stacy, but I get the impression Tim is having problems with being stop hit as he comes in with his own attack. Aborting an oberhau to deal with a thrust is pretty difficult using your instructions but doing this in defence is relatively easy as you say.

When countercutting I generally go for the head these days. Slip back and left and hit to the head works regardless of what the attack is. Non specific defences are of course far more useful and more likely to work under pressure.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Ryan Ricks]

you know i don't remember reading about timing with regards to longsword in mr. Clement's book. i remember he talks about single time offense-defense with regards to sword and shield.

thanks so much for pointing that out before i got too set into a bad habit. i made some notes in the margins.

ryan

[Tim Merritt]

Yes, I focused a bit on this last night sparring (finally! I've been on crutches 2 weeks of last month). Stu's #2 above is not too great a problem. At distence with step, he moves hand/arm/body/feet so you are at least equally advantaged to counter same-same. Also, from this, things like the counter cut to head, arms, and suck-the-gut work generally OK. Stu's #1 above makes sense after trying in sparring (although still difficult in practice!). One example from last night: Standing left pflug to left pflug (getting tired after about 15 min straight) I shuffle left, but get closer and closer. Keeping #1 above in mind, I'm "aware" of his point and focusing my hilt near his tip. At this point I think if he pulls out of his position for a strike, I thrust from close, but at any second he can also thrust from close, which I'm anticipating. But he doesn't, and when I'm close enough I pre-emptively "thrust" my strong to set aside his weak point to my right with a small step with my forward right foot (what I would have done if he had thrust anyway). At this stage his point is set to my right, I can thrust, or pass step with left bringing toe-to-toe in grappling range (or any number of ways from fightbook illustrations when you are inside the point). I think I then blew it at that point, but it still illustrated to me that #1 above is valid, and it's very important to keep the distence and potential "time on target" to the forefront. Same holds true when when on the recieving end of the thrust that interupts your strike, in my opinion.

[Lance Chan]

In my sparring, there're some other options in countering a thrust to my center.

1. If the opponent's weapon is strong, fast and long, like a spear, it's going to be harder to deflect and I would use half swording. The first reason behind the decision is that the leverage of half swording help deflecting a strong thrusting weapon away from your body in a short time. Second, the distance traveled by a deflecting blade in half-swording stance is shorter because it can starts from the middle and still have enough power to push the incoming thrust aside, which means you've faster movement and more reaction time. Thirdly, half-swording deflection works symmetrically regardless of your feet position so it can response to feints well. Fourth, after all, you're not going to be able to reach your opponent at the first response, so giving up reach by switching to half swording stance doesn't hurt.

2. If the thrusting weapon is fast and long, but doesn't have the sharp edges, then I may deflect it by my offhand's forearm, using a circular motion like a rain-wiper on a car's windshield with the elbow acting as pivot and bring the opponent's weapon tip to my outside while I pass my step forward and close the range for counter strike.

3. For the rest of the cases, I would employ a low guard with the tip slightly to either left or right side, depending on my foot's coordination. If I'm standing with right leg forward, then my tip will be on the left side, vice versa. I would intercept the incoming thrust with a false edge upward diagonal cut. On the contact it would bring the incoming tip to my outside and after the move, my blade will be in perfect position to give a counter strike by cutting downward with the true edge. Sometimes if my reach allows, I could cut into my opponent's thrusting hand with the false edge upward diagonal cut, deflecting the incoming tip away and counter strike with a single blow.

4. If reach allows, I may simply pass backward to get out of the opponent's reach and in the same time, counter cut my opponent's thrusting hand from a high guard. It's often that your opponent is trying to thrust at your torso and if you counter cut his hand, which is the closest target available when he made the thrust, you can hit him even with a shorter weapon and still be able to void his attack because he selected a target farther away from him.

Hope these help in easing your grief. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

I haven't been following this thread, but the best advice I've ever gotten on countering, is "Thrust when he thrusts, cut when he cuts."

[Jake_Norwood]

Dang, Casper, you beat me to it.

Jake

[JeanryChandler]

I think a lot of times when poeple are having trouble dealing with the thrust, it is because they are having trouble reading the reach of their opponent and when they are entering into the 'danger zone' (I forgot the German terms)

If you are having trouble on this basic level, then a middle guard with the point out toward the enemy will help you guage this distance. I can usually read reach and range pretty well but it's definately harder when I'm in a tail guard or a high guard.

Another aspect depends on how they are positioned. If they are in a guard with their weapon out toward you, sometimes a pre-emptive beat is a good idea.

I recently fought some experimental bouts using my padded weapons against an experienced rapier fencer using steel practice rapiers. It was a very interesting experiment, I'd wanted to do it ever since wondering about how this kind of contest might work out historically.

Needless to say, I was dealing with a lot of thrusts, and with weapons that are heavier and slower (I tried this with a sword and buckler and then later with a longsword)

I found that a good strategy with the longsword was to aggressively step in and beat the rapier aside pre-emptive to a strike on the guys arm. Another almost as good technique was to wait for his thrust, meet with my strong (forte) deflect just slightly and counter.

I have used similar techniques against a spear, though that is much more difficult when using a longsword, and I agree with Lance a halfswording guard can be beneficial there. It's much easier with a shield.

DB

[JeanryChandler]

One more thing I have to add, when dealing with someone who is effective with the thrust, you have to stand right at the edge of their reach, until they commit. You cannot drift into it or they will skewer you, and if you float outside of it they will choose their attack. You must stay right on the verge.

DB