grappling and falls

[Karen Rose]

I've been conducting a not so scientific experiement with what to do with your body when you are tripped/thrown in a grappling situation...or just plain lose your footing and go down. It has to happen and I wanted to investigate it a bit. I couldn't find any researched material, so I just used myself as a model.
A few bruised knuckes and some sore muscles later I found that with some practice I could fall and roll backwards or forwards and come up, albeit not gracefully, still holding my sword in a defensive posture until I got my feet solidly back underneath me. Keeping my eyes on my opponent was one of my goals.
If anyone knows of any research that has been done in this area, or has any advice I greatly like to hear it.
Thanks.
Karen

[JeffGentry]

if it is an in advertant slip as you step in blood on the battle field or a duel( i know that is sick but i think in the vain of reality in a sword fight and they are bloody)you more than likely will be in no position to roll to your feet try rolling to your feet the next time you slip on ice, don't know if it is realistic but watch a hockey player they do drill's for just such thing's, they train to quickly get back on there feet when they are tripped skating down the rink, and they usualy don't se the trip or fall coming, and do get up very quickly.

[noah gross]

Karen,
It sounds like you are doing the "right thing" by experimenting with what happens when you fall.
I would suggest that first you get proficient at receiving the ground in all directions empty handed then expand on that.
The different parameters are endless:
With a weapon in hand,
With armor or heavy clothing,
Up hill, down hill,
Texture of the ground: gravel, concrete, rocky, wooded, muddy, deep sand, beach, ice etc.
Then you can combine many of these and add a person giving you a good shove in different directions.

As for Jeff's reference to ice, from my experience of practicing rolling on ice, it's not pleasant or easy but it is possible to finish the roll on both feet and be stable.
Practice makes perfect.

Noah Gross.

[leam hall]

Hehe... this'll get your fitness thing going.

I've done this sort of thing in another martial art; lots of rolls forward, backward, and to the side. Going on the 45 isn't a different technique, just an angle change. The main thing to remember is to get as low as you can before you roll; the less distance your torso has to fall the less of a hit you'll take. Use your hands at first and then you can see where you can go without.

For a backward roll, stick one leg out and sit on your other foot. Use the extended leg to start the roll and make sure you cross over your spine--the area of contact should go from one buttock to the opposite shoulder. To practice this and get able to do it, lay flat on your back and initiate the roll from there. It'll take time and a lot of effort, but even us roly-poly sorts can do it.

For the forward roll, again get as low as you can before you start the roll. Put one hand as far back between your legs as you can and then go from that shoulder to the other buttock. Tuck in one foot and let the other give you some spin.

Side rolls are similar, and you actually can keep your eyes on the opponent the whole time. Of course, if you don't practice you can also bump your head on the floor fairly hard. The contact sequence is side of lower leg, side of thigh, back, side of thigh, lower leg/foot.

Hope I've explained it clearly. It takes practice but it can be done. You will lose sight of the opponent on the front and back rolls. The more you practice rolls and on the ground the more advantage you'll have and the less fear will restrict you. Be sure to stretch and warm up before you start, as these are cardio-intense and require flex.

[Karen Rose]

Thanks for the input guys. Hopefully this won't be something I'm having to do on a real regular basis! I do want to explore all the variables.....and also keep from breaking a wrist or collar bone because I may trip over my own feet <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Just like practicing my strikes up and down hill, sideways along a hill in both directions, or when it is windy/cold....I want to throw as many wrenches in there as I can. This is just one more thing to add to the realism that our medieval friends had to contend with.
Thanks again. I always appreciate the input and advice.
Yes Leam....I found a whole new set of muscles I didn't know I had <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Karen

[philippewillaume]

Hello, karren
No I have not seen any indication of break fall/Ukemi in medieval manual.
If you want to train in break falling take lesson in sport/martial arts as such wrestling, judo, aikido, jujitsu, aiki-jutsu or even army close combat.
If you plan do to ringen:
The best for break falling technique, in my opinion, is aikido, it will help for ringen as well though it depends the type of ikkido) but as far as break fall any will do.

You have really one type of forward break fall
And two type of backward break fall
Plus one that is called over the top, big break fall, basically you are flipping your body around one of your arms.

This is the break fall you are going to need the most in ringen as it is used to get out of koshi-nague (hips throws) and there is plenty of hips throws in Ringeck wresting (which I suspect are there to make sure that you land on your head and to make it hard to break fall out of it)

philippe

[Jared L. Cass]

Karen, if you like, we'll go over this when the Wisconsin ARMA Training Day happens hopefully in the middle of next month. It's not too toufgh <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've been chucked, slammed, and tossed around for a good number of years now. Just takes abit of practice like everything else to get good at falling and rebounding!

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Casper Bradak]

I think most fencers back then, from the looks of things, would have been well versed in all the proper rolls. It's basic tumbling, which we know many of them practiced, among othe acrobatics. Therefore it wouldn't suprise me if something like breakfalls were known either, but like he said, there's not much definitive evidence for it. Rolls should suffice in most situations, so long as the guy throwing you doesn't hang on to make something nasty happen.
I learned them in gymnastics when I was a kid, and they've saved me an extrordinary amount of skin and pain throughout my life hehe

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, I can't tell you much about longsword, but I DO know a good deal about falling. I have had many spectacular bike crashes and 10 years in a throwing art. There are a few key principles for falling safely:

1. Clench your teeth. Biting your tongue is not desirable.
2. Tuck your chin to your chest. Whiplash to the neck ain't so helpful either.
3. Try to land on the padded parts of your body (gluteus, lats, etc.) rather than the things that damage (spine) easily.
4. Roll with the technique rather then trying to resist it. If you find yourself being thrown and are unable to do one of them cool ringen counters, then go with it and try to land on the padded parts of the body.

There are many ways to do tumbling and breakfalls, but those are the concepts that I have seen that are common to various systems.

As for how to fall correctly while holding a longsword...can anyone else here offer some advice?

Jaron Bernstein
Colmbus -ARMA

[Randall Pleasant]

Jaron wrote:
As for how to fall correctly while holding a longsword...can anyone else here offer some advice?

A couple of years ago I tripped while working out my in back yard and rolled over the guards of my wasters. Although my waster has nice big round ends on the guards I still received a nice painful black &amp; blue spot on my right ribs (note that I did not fall on the guard and the roll was completely uncontrolled). If l had been using a metal sword I could have easily received a nasty injury. Thus, I think it is very important during a roll with either a short sword or a longsword to get the guards out from under your body by pushing your hilt either to your right or left side. Of course, performing a controlled roll is also extremely important. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Thus, I think it is very important during a roll with either a short sword or a longsword to get the guards out from under your body by pushing your hilt either to your right or left side. Of course, performing a controlled roll is also extremely important"

OK. for falling backwards, it seems easy enough to avoid falling on your sword (literally! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). For falling forward, let me see if I get this:

1. Grab the sword with only the left hand and hold it out to the left side of the body.
2. Do your forward roll with the right shoulder/arm contacting the ground first.

Is this a good understanding?

[Randall Pleasant]

Jaron

Yes, if you are going to roll across right shoulder then push your hilt to you left side, rolling across the left shoulder then push the hilt to your right side. Sometimes I practice the Russian roll keeping my sword in the hand of the shoulder on which I am rolling. Let me end by saying that I am not very good at rolling, I feel more like a block than a ball. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Gene Tausk, who gave a very good class on basic rolling at the International Event, will probably have some good insight into this subject.

[Erich Wagner]

While rolling is a crucial skill to posses, in most grappling encounters the person being thrown isn't going to be given the opportunity to roll out of a technique. They will, in one form or another, impact the ground vertically on their back, face, side, or possibly head. In these situations there are three things you really need to do.
1) distribute your body weight. This is usually accomplished by slapping the grounds with your extended arms just before impact. This reduces the amount of force per square inch delivered to the center of the body.
2) Exhale. This does two things for you. It empties your lings in a controlled fashion so you don't end up with the sensation of having your wind knocked out of you plus it tightens your abdominal muscles which helps minimize the jostling done to your internal organs.
3) Tuck you chin into your chest. This will help to reduce whiplash effect plus will help to keep your teeth closed so you don't bite your tonque off when you hit.

I really suggest practicing this on a good sport mat before letting someone throw you.

[Erich Wagner]

In the previous post, lings=lungs and tonque = tongue. Ahhh, the hazards of posting before proof reading.

[Casper Bradak]

If you roll with a longsword, like if you've been knocked over, you can go into a roll without your hand, or your can plant your hand on the ground, but you have to open it up so your palm is flat over the grip, don't punch your fist into the ground. Then snatch your sword back as your weight goes off your hand. Don't punch the hilt into the ground either as a metal one will probably just sink right in and get stuck.