New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

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JeanryChandler
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New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:30 pm

I redid these clips in .wmv format because several pepole were having trouble readin the .mpg which were also very large. These are low res but bite sized.

I haven't posted any sparring clips to an ARMA board in several months, so I'm eager to hear any feedback, positive or negative, that anyone may want to contribute on these.

These are all longsword fights between me and one other guy.

http://www.iregames.com/jr/slumfu.htm

Fencing is done with 2.5 -3lb bastard swords. This was friendly free play, nothing like a tournament or a prize bout, but basically 1/2 to full speed except for some killing blows that are slowed down out of courtesy. Comments and critiques are welcome, though keep in mind we are still beginners in terms of correct WMA technique.

(How many flat parries can you count in here vs. edge parries?)

J
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Lance Chan
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Lance Chan » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:35 pm

Hello. I've viewed all clips. I didn't make a careful counts on the techniques employed. Nevertheless, I can see that there are significant progress since your last sparring clips with sword and shield. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Some impressive binding and passing through.

BTW, I do see that your advocated hanging guard both working well, and failing to work, with more frequency on the success side. However, I think there're reasons in your sparring with Skip that contributed to that statistic. First of all, most of the strikes were downward and only a few were upward, so the hanging guard can close most of the lines of attack. Secondly, the downward diagonal cuts were all taking a path quite close to the vertical cut's path, that means the contacts were made on the forte of the blade. Thirdly, there are a lot of sticking the sword there (bind) but not a lot of doubling (hitting this way than suddenly change to another way). Finally, there ain't many leg strikes or attacks to lower targets.

Hanging guard does work over here and some practitioners rely highly on this guard. However, I'm quite keen on defeating this guard and I knew some of my better opponents also are. That's why I personally don't use hanging guard very frequently myself. The reasons are: 1. We strike legs pretty often here. 2. Many of us attack with upward strikes. 3. Even the downward diagonal strikes can be adjusted during the attack to go with a path that will hit the foible of the sword, instead of the forte, thus getting through the defence. 4. A few of us unbind and strike at another opening with a very high speed. 5. Even if we don't switch to a path that go to the foible of the opponent sword that could be quite far away from the original path, we could switch to a closer path that would lead to the hands on the hilt when the opponent is performing a hanging guard.

In your videos, it was obvious that whenever someone is going to strike, another one would like to raise the hilt and form a hanging guard. Sometimes I can see that the attacker didn't commence and the defender had to reset into another guard after realizing that. That's telegraphing of the habit of over-reliance on hanging guard. The opponent could make use of that and strike from vom tag at an unexpected target. Like going from high guard but contact at the knee.

So in my opinion, if the sparring was done with more varieties on the striking targets and distance (like lashing out to hit hands, elbows, knees, whatever that are closest to you), you will find that there might be other defensive manuevors that are more versatile than hanging guard, and you might be able to stop the telegraphing as well (because you're no longer single-minded on it).
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JeanryChandler
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:14 pm

Lance, thank you for your detailed analysis of those sparring clips. I think your observations are insightful, though there is some of the context you may not be aware of (I'll get to in a second)

I do want to say that my advocacy of the hanging guard, if you will, really only extended to your bouts with that fellow who had won the gold medal in Korea. I suggested hanging guard as an appropriate countermeasure there because of the way he fought, using a lot of strikes from above and telegraphing his strikes.

As to the differences in technique, we do have a variety of styles with different fighters here, and I hope to get some more clips up soon which will illustrate those. Each fighter in our group has a different background which influences the way they fight.

Skip for example is a veteran of our old sparring group and has a lot of street fighting experience, and has also done training in Brazilian capoaeira which emphasiezes a lot of spinning. This is reflected in his fighting style which is almost playful, but can be very effective. He also does rely on hanging guard a lot.

Personally, while I like the hanging guard, I agree with your assessment as to it's limitations. My favorite attacks these days are combinations starting with false edge cuts from the tail guard, some of which you can see in these clips. I am also a generally aggressive fighter though and that hanging guard can be useful in a charge. But when I fight I react to my opponents fighting style, and attempt to select the most appropriate approach.

Incidentally, I think some of what you thought was telegraphing in the clips was actually feinting, or at least, clumsy attempts at feinting. We hadn't sparred for a while and as out of shape as I am I was pretty tired and weak, so some of my strikes weren't as fast as they used to be. This is another reason why I can be too aggressive, I tend to want to finish the fight quickly before I get too tired <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

This improves greatly though when we've been sparring &amp; training regularly, which we are now starting to do again now that the weather has become endurable with the onset of fall.

We do also employ some of your favorite techniques of quick cuts to the hands and etc. from maximum range, we call this "sharp shooting". And I like to attack the legs, which you will see in some other clips I think. One other factor which may make a difference as well is that I think our weapons are a little heavier than yours, so not as quick.

In the future, I'll have some more clips with some different fighters from our group, I think you will notice some very different styles, and also with different weapons (we even do padded swords against steel rapiers sometimes which is a very interesting match-up).

Curiously, while my longsword technique has evolved quite a bit, my best weapon is still sword and shield and I still fight the old self taught way with those weapons. We are planning to study several fechcbuchs with buckler and shield this fall so it will be interesting to see how things change.

Incidentally, I think after watching these several times, almost all the parries were edge on flat, or flat on edge, which is interesting because skip doesn't always have correct edge placement...

Thanks again Lance for your thoughtful critique, I look forward to your further comments as I'm able to make more clips available.

J
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Lance Chan
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Lance Chan » Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:27 pm

I see! Will look forward to them!
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:19 pm

http://www.iregames.com/jr/slumfu.htm

I added a couple more clips, though these are not the ones I was referring to above (those should be up Saturday night after I get the CD with last weeks video on it)

I added one more of Skip and I, and three others which are basically pepole playing around, but I thought you might find interesting since there are some different people and different weapons (sword and buckler, and a bill).

One other thing worth pointing out from the first seven clips is the reaction to late hits. Skip, who has just started fencing again pretty recenty, doesn't always immediately recognize a hit. (everybody does this once in a while)

You'll notice that I try to stay ready and parry late hits, and deliver a second or third killing blow if necessary. I think that is a good policy, since in a real fight, it's very likely that as deadly as swords are (and we have all seen test cutting on meat etc.) there is a good chance your opponent may not die immediately upon being hit, especially in the 1 or 2 seconds after.

DB
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Alfred Wong
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Alfred Wong » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:33 am

Dear Jean,

The video size is okay. But I don't like the sound quality much : P

Nice video. I hope that you can post more next time? I would like to see you using your favourite weapon : )

By the way, are you fighting full speed in all video? You mentioned that some of them are half-speed, right?

Alf <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Anthony Boyd
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Anthony Boyd » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:16 am

Good clips, it looks like you were having a good time too. I bet Skip was thrilled to have pulled off that spinning counter!
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Rabbe J.O. Laine » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:14 am

Lance,

Several points in defence of the hanging guard, if I may (having just finished re-reading Bref Instructions, there was no way I could resist...*g*):

That's why I personally don't use hanging guard very frequently myself. The reasons are: 1. We strike legs pretty often here.


Slip &amp; countercut at the arms is a defence that works marvelously against leg attacks from Pendant.

2. Many of us attack with upward strikes. 3. Even the downward diagonal strikes can be adjusted during the attack to go with a path that will hit the foible of the sword, instead of the forte, thus getting through the defence.


The defender could pass forward and stop the cut before it is in full speed, Silver-style. This quite much eliminates the chances of the attack hitting the foible.

Another magnificent technique against downwards cuts from the Hanging is a transition to an Outside guard forceful enough to knock the attack aside. This should leave the opponent rather vulnerable to a riposte.

4. A few of us unbind and strike at another opening with a very high speed.


If the defender steps in to stifle the cut, the quickness of the opponent's uncrossing is pretty much a non-issue, as he will have to make a rather large motion in order to uncross, while the defender only needs to turn his hands to uncross and cut the attacker at the head.

5. Even if we don't switch to a path that go to the foible of the opponent sword that could be quite far away from the original path, we could switch to a closer path that would lead to the hands on the hilt when the opponent is performing a hanging guard.


Which is one of the reasons why the fellow in the hanging guard is not just going to wait there until the attack is in full speed, but will stop it as early as possible, forte-to-forte.

Rabbe

Edit: By the way, Jeanry, sorry for not commenting on your clips. I'll try to do that when I get home, since I can't watch videos on this silly machine...

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JeanryChandler
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:27 pm

There is sound, it's possible you don't have the right codecs or something. You might want to try using Win-amp.

By the way, are you fighting full speed in all video? You mentioned that some of them are half-speed, right?


What does it look like to you?

Nice video. I hope that you can post more next time? I would like to see you using your favourite weapon : )


I should have several more clips up Saturday night, including a few where I have sword and shield. Some of these (from last week) are quite intense.

J
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:31 pm

Good clips, it looks like you were having a good time too. I bet Skip was thrilled to have pulled off that spinning counter!


He actually does stuff like that all the time, and you should have seen him when he was a kid, back when we were first doing "slum fu" 15 years ago. He used to do flips and rolls, leap over strikes at his legs, pretty spectacular. Unfortunately none of us owned a video camera back then.

I think his training with Capoaeira (sp?) has lent an especial affinity for spins which persists to this day even though he's much older now, and a dad twice over <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />. He is very good at them.

I wonder if there is any reference to spinning or pirouette moves in the fechtbuchs?

J
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:44 pm

Good clips, it looks like you were having a good time too.


We were having fun, our weekly fencing sessions are turning out to be a really nice way for some old friends to hang around together again, and exploring WMA has really started to become a collaborative effort, everyone brings something to the table. It's a bit of an adventure for us that takes us away from the constraints of everyday life. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

J
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Rabbe J.O. Laine » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:41 am

Jeanry,

The clips don't appear to be working on my computer for some reason; all I get is a black screen. Do they require some specific software to run?

Rabbe

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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:11 am

Hi Rabbe,

I'm not sure what your default video player is, but most people shoud be able to read those files. I actually changed the format so it would be more accessable, they are in .wmv format, the windows media format. If you have Windows you may want to try downloading the clips to your desktop, (right click and select 'download target') and then opening them with Widows Media Player (from Accessories on your Programs menu from the Start button)

Failing that, you could also download WinAmp for free from download.com

Hope that helps,

J
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John Dillinger

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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:13 am

I would like to read reaction and critiques from any active ARMA members who might have time to look at those clips, if any of you might be willing.

Also, if anyone else has any sparring clips available on the web I would very much like to see them.

J
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John Dillinger

Anthony Boyd
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Re: New Orleans sparring clips-fixed

Postby Anthony Boyd » Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:30 am

Could you tell us something about what was going on before and after Jean-Skip1? Looking at it it seems like this exchange is far from over, yet both of you stop and prepare to reset.
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