ReMA vs. MMA

European historical unarmed fighting techniques & methods

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby philippewillaume » Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:03 am

Hello chaps
are you referring to that ?

(73 r )Das dritt vff ston.
The third aufston
Ob dich ain man gar vnder im hätt, so nym war, welche hand er oben hat.Die selben griff nach der sytten an dem arm. - Daß haisst ain bain bruchvnnd gat in vil ringen. - Indem griff vol mitt henden vnd mitt bainen vndmitt gantzem lyb, byß du den man vnder dich bringst. So thu der vnder-halder ains, alß vor geschriben stat.

I would have translated it like that.
If one man got you under him, so catch/find whatever hand he has on top. The same (hand) you bring along the side at the arm this is called a leg-break and leads to many ringen. In wrestling you will fight with tooth and nail and whole heartedly, bring the man under you and do a under halten (pin) as they lay written above.

There are 6 other legs-breaks
4 at the arms and 2 at the leg (bain is bone as well as leg)

I think it is something along the line
Sankio from a knelling or crouched position (may be on the ground but that is not in the same line of the uffston) but I think it is any thing that fold his hands between his arm and his body so it can be a direct nikkio immobilisation if it is on the same side, if you do it the other side it is probably ikkio. The idea is to grab the hand that is the highest and move with it to the side of the said hand

What do you think
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby Jake_Norwood » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:04 pm

Um, ikko? Describe these movements, please.

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby philippewillaume » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:25 am

Ikkio, Nikkio, sankio
First, second and third principle.
Are the 3 first applications in akido regardless of the body movement? You do to initiate them and during them. Tenkan/tenchin ura wasa (sometimes called negative technique) is usually more circular and more “flowery’ and is what comes to mind when you think of aikido, irimi omote. Is a much more direct form, it is a more immediately usable in self-defense version.

Basically, they are 3 arm bar.
Forget about ikkio in that case, I put it for thoroughness sake
Ikkio= rotation of the wrist so the elbow lock itself out (the olecrane radius articulation).

Nikkio= rote the wrist/forearm one way and the elbow/upper arm the other.

Sankio=turn the hand so that the back is facing your opponent lifting the elbow up. And you cut it down at the side of your opponent.
Basically you lock the arm in the other direction than the one you do in ikkio.

Nikkio and sankio are very very painfull and will break, or at least dislocate something very easily. To botain the same sresult with ikkio you need to put more effort into it,

I was about to advise you to ask an aikido-ka but those principal can be use to break, throw, bring to the ground and pin. But most aikido classes focuses on the bring to the ground and pin and focus on movement so the “oomph” may not be that obvious.

Those arm bar are used in ju-jitsu but I do not know the name they use to describe them. I am pretty sure that you have them in BJJ

i hope that helps
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby David_Knight » Sun May 01, 2005 12:39 pm

Just as absurd is the idea that one of the Masters would be able to win a UFC title. Just the list of rules in MMA takes away a considerable amount of tools a master would have used. Add to that the fact that Fiore Dei Liberi says there are techniques that are not even safe to train, but yet it would be ok to use them in a competition?


Agreed. As someone with a folkstyle wrestling base who trains pretty heavily in BJJ/grappling, I don't see how MMA can be compared to Ringen in a sporting environment. That's like sparring against a sport fencer with a longsword, and only being allowed to thrust. No grappling, no half-swording, no disarms, no left hand... nothing integral to rounding out the art. Take away all of Ringen's dirty tricks, and an MMA fighter would probably win; remove the competition rules and restrictions, and a Ringen fighter would surely prevail. Totally different applications.

For example, one of P. H. Mair's staff techniques includes a throw from which you restrain the opponent by pressing your right knee into his groin (which is taboo in MMA), hooking his right leg with your left leg, and pressing down on his arms or choking him. Without the pain factor of the knee-to-groin, it would be very easy for an MMA grappler to reverse this position, since you don't have a very solid base, and the opponent's left leg is free.

The counter is to free your arms, gouge out his eyes with one hand (hardly MMA friendly) while hooking your thumb under his jawbone (so that you are effectively gripping his face like a bowling ball), strike his groin with the other hand (maybe adding a nice USMC L.I.N.E. training grab-twist-pull... ouch), and meanwhile repeatedly drive your left knee into his crotch as hard as you can until he lets go. In a life-or-death struggle, this would probably work very well, but the entire sequence violates numberous UFC/NAGA/AFC rules.

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby Andrew Kesterson » Sun May 01, 2005 12:55 pm

I have read [most of] this thread, and here's my comment.

If you're comparing medieval combat techniques which were designed to kill, maim, and otherwise inflict serious pain, against the techniques in modern martial arts competitions... That's like trying to compare a TKD black belt flinging his legs about, to a special forces soldier with an M16. These two people trained for explicitly different purposes; one is a sport, the other is meant to kill in the most quick and efficient (and least dangerous to the practitioner) method possible.

That's not to say that all martial arts today are sports, I'm just saying that all martial arts that have "tournaments" with points and rules - where the entire point of training is to master the things used in tournaments - are sports not martial arts. Even UFC has a list of rules, and things you can't do, as long as my arm. There is a difference between practicing a combat martial art, toning down your speed and lethality for sparring and free-play - and practicing for the pure sake of the tournament.

At my Ninjutsu school, we had a guy come in one time (some high level belt from a local Karate school) and watch a class. We regularly threw each other four or five feet, would inflict terribly painful arm and wrist (and everything else) locks, takedowns, submission holds, chokes, nerve striking, and would rarely pull punches. "Pain is weakness leaving the body" was on all of our t-shirts. My brother once (literally) got thrown through the roof at one point (he is the more hardcore between the two of us). And all this was done without mats, on *hard* tile floors. This guy who came in and watched all this, asked us if we ever competed in tournaments. We just laughed "No, we don't do tournaments." He just nodded, "Not enough students to get into the tourney or something?" "No," the Shidoshi laughed and said, "We'd kill somebody." There's a very serious, and obvious, difference between a combat martial art and a sport.
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby JeffGentry » Sun May 01, 2005 4:12 pm

Hey Andrew & David?

Well we are not trying to compare Ringen to UFC(MMA) or debate which is better, The Master's tell us this can be used in earnest and in play, play being an MMA tournement, Me personaly i would like to see how well this does work at full speed against a fully resistant opponent, Me and Martin and a few other's are wondering/discussing if there are enough technique's to cover ground and standing to be able to try this in a local MMA tournement(not a huge UFC event were there job is to fight and train 6-8 hrs a day), so know one would be arrested like you would in a bar fight, we don't want to pair it down to be a UFC(MMA) sport fighting art, there are a lot of local tournement's out there that we could on occasion try this without the nasty little trick's that we would also train.

We would need to do alot of training in ground and standing and puching in order to have any kind of success, not meaning a win, success being we could realisiticly defend ourselve's against someone who doesn't know our art and we don't know there.

Phillipe

I haven't done a whole lot of research on the ground aspect of this i will be looking at the Ringeck's ground stuff it sound's interesting.

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby David_Knight » Sun May 01, 2005 7:07 pm

Jeff,

As far as competing in local MMA tournaments, I think our biggest challenge would be finding a purist who is well-versed in Ringen and *not* influenced by modern MMA or other arts.

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby JeffGentry » Sun May 01, 2005 7:26 pm

Hey David

I think we as practioner's can to a large extent control what principle's and technique's we use in this venue, how many kendo practioner's now are fencing in the ARMA method and not influenced by there previous training?

It would be an interesting way to test these method's, principle's, and technique's, "in play" in my opinion.

It is just MO.

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby David_Knight » Sun May 01, 2005 9:16 pm

Jeff,

Well with kendo you're dealing with a very different weapon. I think it may be a little harder when unarmed not to revert to ingrained responses. When Mike and I do Pankration sparring, we have to really make a conscious effort not to use BJJ techniques that aren't depicted in Greek artwork... It's really hard when the opportunity for a BJJ submission presents itself and muscle memory kicks in, but we have no equivalent in Pankration.

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby Dave Nathan » Tue May 03, 2005 7:38 pm

First post, woohoo!

Now for the argument: It seems like a lot of the posters here seem to be trying to use the "well, our art was used for killing on the battlefield" argument to validate themselves. Respectfully, that is no basis for judgement of a martial art. The only judgement that can be made is by the art's effectiveness versus other arts, with a complete understanding of all its techniques. Therefore, without a complete understanding of BJJ or Ringen, one cannot make assumptions of their strengths and weaknesses.

Coming from a BJJ standpoint, this is my view of Ringen: I'm sure Ringen was used quite effectively on the battlefields of Europe, but we must remember: the battlefields of Europe were won with weapons, not unarmed combat! Therefore, the likelihood that Ringen was used on the battlefield with deadly effectiveness is very doubtable, because even the best unarmed figher would lose to a skilled blade.Furthermore, many of the Ringen advocates here seem to be attempting to validate their claims by saying that "MMA has rules, limiting it's effectiveness in a real life challenge," and "Ringen is based around killing on a battlefield using dirty tricks," and what not. To refute the first point: sure, MMA has rules. These are placed there to protect its competitors. But, what limits an MMA fighter from using dirty tricks like knees to the groin, eye-gouging, biting, or what not in an actual physical confrontation? If anything, the MMA competitor would have an advantage because of his experience against resisting opponents, and physical fitness! He or she would also have a good knowledge of keeping an opponent in a situation where he or she has control, such as the mount, guard, sidemount, or knee-on-belly position. Furthermore, we shouldn't underestimate MMA's striking. I'd say Muay Thai and western boxing are more than adequate, and it's not like MMA competitors are merely a "jack of all trades." MMA fighters are excellent strikers and excellent groundfighters, and an MMA fighter may specialize in one of these areas to differentiate himself from other competitors.

Ringen can't claim superiority in real-life confrontations simply because "dirty tricks" are utilized. Realisitcally, there are no "mysitcal techniques" to attacking the groin, biting someone, or gouging their eyes. There is also nothing restricting an MMA fighter from using these simple techniques in a confrontation, where it is my humble opinion that the MMA fighter would have an edge because of his knowledge of takedowns, sweeps, submissions, and striking while under stress and pressure. Also, the chokes and jointlocks in BJJ and MMA groundfighting are quite capable of permanent injury, if not death (from chokes). I'd like to see someone try to stab me while they're stuck in my triangle choke as I control both of their arms. Would they grab their knife and stab me with only the use of their toes? Haha, I hope not!

Also, alot of posters here seem to think that MMA has too many rules which restrict effectiveness. In my humble opinion, that is a complete exaggeration. In most MMA events, the following are restricted: biting, fish hooking, eye gouging, groin attacks, hair pulling, and kicking a grounded face down opponent (stomps are allowed if the opponent is on his back and conscious). These are the universally accepted rules of MMA, which are hardly restricting. They simply ensure that fighters won't be permanently injured, so they can return to fight. Real-life applicable skills are being used in the ring.
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby david welch » Tue May 03, 2005 7:58 pm

Fouls:
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition."


Quite a few, huh?

Now for the argument: It seems like a lot of the posters here seem to be trying to use the "well, our art was used for killing on the battlefield" argument to validate themselves. Respectfully, that is no basis for judgement of a martial art. The only judgement that can be made is by the art's effectiveness versus other arts, with a complete understanding of all its techniques. Therefore, without a complete understanding of BJJ or Ringen, one cannot make assumptions of their strengths and weaknesses.


Actually, the arguement is:

Almost all known blade cultures that fought in close combat to the death had a style of sport wrestling in which the winner won by either throwing his opponent to the ground, or you lost by allowing any part of your body except your feet to touch the ground. Why?

Also, no known battlefield combat art, eastern or western, has integrated and prominent ground fighting. Why?

Also, when the guys that were putting together the H2H training for the soldiers in WWII, even though they were well skilled in judo, wrestling, and one of them was one of the first western BBJ masters, no ground fighting or grappling was used . Why?

I'm sure Ringen was used quite effectively on the battlefields of Europe, but we must remember: the battlefields of Europe were won with weapons, not unarmed combat! Therefore, the likelihood that Ringen was used on the battlefield with deadly effectiveness is very doubtable, because even the best unarmed figher would lose to a skilled blade.


Sorry, but due to the nature of armoured combat, a lot of the techniques are to close and use joint destruction techniques on the enemy. H2H would have been much more common that most people are aware of.
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby Dave Nathan » Tue May 03, 2005 8:12 pm

Quite a few, huh?


I stated, universally accepted. Of course there will be exceptions to any rule in competition that is held worldwide by different organizations. For example, foot stomps to the face are allowed in PRIDE FC, another MMA organization, but not in UFC. There are some organizations with fewer rules, and some with more. The bottom most 10 are ethical rules anyway, not restricting the fighters' tools.

Actually, the arguement is:

Almost all known blade cultures that fought in close combat to the death had a style of sport wrestling in which the winner won by either throwing his opponent to the ground, or you lost by allowing any part of your body except your feet to touch the ground. Why?


Probably because they had no clue about the gaurd, open gaurd, and sweep techniques, lol! It is because grappling like that had dire consequences on an ancient battlefield where people were inbetween eachother hacking and slashing. However, in today's modern world, such battles don't exist for practical reasons. Thus, combat has evolved to meet the change, and most esspecially civilian self-defense. There are no martial arts, other than shooting a gun well if it can be considered a martial art, which can claim battlefield effeciency. Current militaries are usually taught a mixture of stand up grappling, throws, and quick pins, borrowing from Judo, BJJ, and wrestling. Take Krav Maga for example. In any case, a well-versed RBSD trainee (reality based self defense) were to come upon a skilled MMA fighter in a one versus one, I would put my money on the MMA fighter! RBSD and modern military hand to hand (from WW2 up) are used to quickly teach soldiers and combatants effective techniques, with no time for polishing. Compare this to someone with a blackbelt in BJJ and several years experience in Muay Thai and wrestling, with ring tested effectiveness. All the dirty tricks in the world wouldn't work, considering that the MMA fighter could easily employ them as well!

Also, no known battlefield combat art, eastern or western, has integrated and prominent ground fighting. Why?


Because they focused on weapons, obviously. Also, the Samurai of Japan were skilled in a technique which involved standup/ground grappling with a dagger.

Also, when the guys that were putting together the H2H training for the soldiers in WWII, even though they were well skilled in judo, wrestling, and one of them was one of the first western BBJ masters, no ground fighting or grappling was used . Whyy


You tell me. In all actuality, this was because of the fact that they were supposed to shoot, use their knife, or a bayonette, rifle butt, or other such weapons in close range combat. I'm sure if they expected unarmed combat without either party having a weapon, they'd have more grappling and submissions involved. As I stated before, modern battlefields are not like this.

Sorry, but due to the nature of armoured combat, a lot of the techniques are to close and use joint destruction techniques on the enemy. H2H would have been much more common that most people are aware of.


Yes, but this would've been with weapons such as daggers, longswords, spears, poleaxes, and what not in considering. Such weapons have disappeared from practical use. While a switchblade negates most martial training, most people are too "good samaritan" oriented to carry around a concealed blade or firearm. Thus, the skills taught in MMA suddenly become useful. In any case, would've any weapon period give someone an advantage over someone doesn't have one? But if both sides have some sort of weapon, say a knife, such things as knife fighting skills and grappling would play a large role in survival.
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby Rabbe J.O. Laine » Tue May 03, 2005 10:27 pm

Sorry for jumping in like this in the middle of the discussion.

Dave,

I stated, universally accepted. Of course there will be exceptions to any rule in competition that is held worldwide by different organizations. For example, foot stomps to the face are allowed in PRIDE FC, another MMA organization, but not in UFC. There are some organizations with fewer rules, and some with more. The bottom most 10 are ethical rules anyway, not restricting the fighters' tools.


Quite so, but many of those rules make effective ground fighting far easier. I know that the attacks forbidden in rules 1-11 would be the preferred responses to a ground situation in quite a few systems (including at least some Medieval wrestling systems, unless I'm entirely mistaken).

Rabbe

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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby philippewillaume » Wed May 04, 2005 4:01 am

Dave
I see where you are coming from.
However I think you are mixing two concepts here.
My personal opinion is that it is not the art you practice, it is the will to do damage you opponent that make a good fighter. Hence for me the X style is not better than the Z. so I think we agree on that.

However, I think you are under a bit of a misconception about medieval wrestling
Ringen (as in pure hand to hand) was a very very important part of medieval martial arts, there is a ringen section in all the german fecthburt of the 1400 that I know of.
Be it in armour or without Armour and even on horse.
The longsword plays, single sword and sword and buckler you have integrated ringen, but non the less this was a form of it own

Yes you can find what you call dirty tricks:
Eye gouging, Fish hooking, Groin attacks of any kind, Throat strikes of any kind
Those are 4 of the murders strikes of Ringen
(You have temple hits and pressure, strike to the solar plexus and a few more on the top of that)
You will find Small joint manipulation in some ringen techniques
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck, that is exactly why there so many hips throw in ringen.
Not to mention falling on the genital of you opponent with your knee as in the third unterhalten.

However I think you missing that it is a fully integrated hand to hand combat system and not really a just incase my weapon does not work any more or dirty tricks.

This what the text says
Von mort stossen: der erst.
About the murder stike the first
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. Then engage him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up (ligen can have the idea of accepting the technique as in blending with it and raising up to go against.)
èPunch to the solar plexus (as far as I can tell they believed that the heart was there). The important bit is the grab before the strike, then wrestle after

Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden, obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so you find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins), upper techniques (gepurt=puren= machen untersuchen. In reine bringen) and auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}


Do I make sense?
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Re: ReMA vs. MMA

Postby M Wallgren » Wed May 04, 2005 5:10 am

Theres a lot of arguments here refering to the use on the battlefield. I don´t deny that it could be used on the battlefield but I dont agree tha Ringen is only developed for use on the battlefield.

On what do you base your theory?

In my oppinion the manuals deal almost only with skirmish fighting and H2H fighting, not battlefield fighting. This apply to all the weapons and unarmed combat. And many manuals refer to fighting in ernest and in play. This play I think of as sparring. And this Sparring could be applyed to use in competing with other Wrestlers and fighter to test oneself and to get a better understandig of ones art.

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