Western Boxing

[Mike Chidester]

Post deleted by Gene Tausk

[Mike Chidester]

To continue the real discussion, I found the following interesting.

Boxing, at its core, is simplified rapier sans the weapons. They've removed a lot of the deadliest (most effective) techniques because it's a sport, but a lot of the fundamentals are still there. We've been talking about this a lot in ARMA Provo, actually, since I've been asking Stew a lot of questions (partly with regard to this thread). The last two or three practices have spent a lot of time on how to apply dagger and rapier to unarmed striking, and the classical (pre-WW II) boxing techniques that were so derived.

Given these origins, and knowing as we do the proper use of these weapons, it seems to me that boxing initially did include all of the grappling elements that we know and love from armed combat. So it was what we'd term a "complete" martial art, in that it employed all ranges of the fight. I wonder when it was reduced to its current form. Certainly not during the Prize Fights of the 17th and 18th centuries.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

Up until the 19th century they use to post with the left hand, basicly like a pancration stance, and they would let go with straight right's and roundhouse's, then when "Gentleman" Jim Corbett took the heavy weight crown from John Sullivan primarily by the use of "New technology" the Jab, and people seen you could use both hand's to do damage and gain distance, it was a major revelation that everyone started to use, and that i think was the begining of the end of traditional pugilism, as for the wrestling grappling i think the decline of that occured around the same time in the late 18th early 19th century because people were going "Pro" and they would travel around and wrestle for money and they were using alot of very wicked hold's, and they did damage each other, there hold's were very simlar to what is seen in our fight book's, they would go 3 fall's and sometime's it would take an hour or more before someone won and people didn't want to sit for an hour or more so promoter's started to stage who won and it was all about atracting a crowd and making a buck.


It seem's when ever money is introduced to any martial art it start's to go down hill, for the simple fact people have to feel like they are getting what they pay for, even if they are and it is something simple they want feel like they are smart, faster, better able to defend themselve's, it all boil's down to pleasing people and giving them what they expect and most do not want to work hard to learn to defends themselve's.

Case in point look at alot of EMA instructor's in the U.S they are old fat guy's that probably couldn't run ten feet without getting winded, and they usualy lack scholarship of the origin's and foundation's of there art they just "Parrot" what there instructor said to them right or wrong.

Gene spent quit abit of time as a Tae Kwon do? instructor so i imagine he could be more enlightiening as to what most people who walk into a Dojo want, expect from a martial art and how EMA's have become what they are which are basicly combat ineffective system's and way's to make a living.


Jeff

[Joachim Nilsson]

They called what what?? When whaa....? You lost me, Martin. <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

[KatherineJohnson]

I think he's referring to the three parts of a swordfight.

Zufechten, Krieg/handarbeit /abzug

[Vakhtang Kiziria]

Hello gentlmen!
I am Vakhtang of Kiziria family, originaly from republic of Georgia - formerly part of USSR.
I used to box a liitle, even compete when in school and college, so it is fare to say I am familiar with the Western boxing teqnike. My trenner (coach), actually two of them, used to educate us students on history of boxing. Originally box in England ( before 19 cent) was much rougher, no gloves what so ever ( as a result punches had to be directed presisly evoiding sertain areas ( like forhead) not to break one's owne wrist or fingers), no time limit, and other teqnike was in use as well, such as punches by head, grappling of reasts and feasts and other stuff.
Though Georgian by origin my family lived in Moscow, Russia.
In street fights box was my advantage. Once I beat the dzu do guy. My illusions were crushed once I visited my native Georgia.
National martial sports very popular there and among most popular is chidaoba , wich even in its present simplifyed form is much more eficient then dzu do. It happens so that I have found out the hard way inferiority of modern boxer in fighting natural georgian wrestler. however quik I tryed I was stoped in the beginning and then simply disabled by powerful throw...I had to find answers so I started to study ( visualy mostly)varios forms of georgian wrestling ...I think now that the myth about wrestler versus boxer are born in modern society or culture which has no deep rooted tradition of wrestling... I have tryed box against my friends georgian wrestlers since, I have analyzed some fights on street I had opportunity to observ or partispate. It is comperatevly easy for good wrestler to break distance while bloking punches ( partly even taking them ) it is realy matter of seconds in real fight, then go for kill. And let me tell you some of chidaoba ways are very rough and cruel ...
By the way there is an interesting type of fighting sistem called HriDoli in Georgia ( hard for me to translate at the moment) it combines wrestling teqnike with the Mushti Krivi, wich is old gergian boxing system and I suspekt it has lot in common with box once existed in England, as it is sport of common people, farmers and highlenders. So, in HriDoli system fighter constantly shifting teqnike he provokes wrestler to wrestle, make him stoll then suddenly throws punches (all in close quarters), if one then try to break away or answers with box , he would shift to wrestling.
I confess...
Crap was beaten out of me several times, as result I ve developed interest in this system. I have almost no expiriense in wrestling and it is hard for my body to forget boxing teqnike I knew and adopt georgian mushti krivi ( I am saying I am not good at it yet)
I already realize importanse of wrestling in fighting. So, my advise would be- do not anderestimate wrestling when talking about modern boxing.
My apologyes for incorrekt English.
Sncerely,
Vakhtang

[Gene Tausk]

Dobro pozhalovat', uvazhaemij gospodin!

Always glad to get a visitor from the Rodina!

Certainly I don't believe anyone here underestimates wrestling techniques. As you can probably tell from the posts by Kat and Mike Cartier, they are big believers in its effectiveness (as am I).

Please send me a personal email as I would like to discuss with you native Georgian fighting arts (ja govorju po-russki svobodno, iz-za etogo, mozhno prodlit' na russkom jazyke): [email]genet48766@aol.com.[/email]


S uvazhenijem,


-----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gene

don't be stingy you have to share this with everyone i myself would be interested in hearing more about this.

Jeff

[Vakhtang Kiziria]

Hi, Gene!
Tnank you for kind words of welcom !
About my reply ...I actually was hoping that Robert Rolph would read it , somehow I sensed in his original post something similar to my own attidude towards wrestling I had before. I still keep respect for box and its history, just wanted to share my experience.
about georgian martial art...I will be glad to talk about it, though do not take me for expert, I started to learn it only 2 years ago.
By the way after first lessons I have realised that some of the things and principles I was shown was actually something my father tryed to teach me and failed as I ignored what he tryed to show me ( at that time karate and kung fu became available for the first time and fathers georgian box did not looked attraktive to me in compearanse with Brus Lee moves...how stupid was I, I was offered gold and rejekted it in my blindness...)
Strange enaugh but we often ignoring ansestral knolege and then pursuing the same or similar things somewhere else...

So, Gene thank you for email, I will contact you soon.

P.S. Gene, I also speak russian well, actually even better then my native georgian, as I grew up, lived and study in Russia .
Two of my closest friends are Russians, but I prefer to continiu in English ( if you don't not mind quolity of my English )
<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Vakhtang

[Joachim Nilsson]

Hehe, knowing Martin, he's probably referring to zulaufend <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ringen.

[barnabyhazen]

Hi -- have recently developed interest in Chidaoba, and other Georgian arts, and I was hoping you might dialogue with me. I'm a long time martial artist here in the US, have Georgian family background, and became curious about this wrestling style in particular. Please post or write back if you get this. thanks.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

I have no experience in boxing or other unarmed combat arts, however i believe this arguement can be summed up in a simple way: who would win in a fight between a master of dagger arts and a rapier master? It's a matter of who controls the fight. If the dagger man can close he will win, whereas if the rapier man can keep him out, he wins.

martin.

[Joachim Nilsson]

The man who is the better fighter will win. It's as simple as that.

[philippewillaume]

hello
You can have a look at Mendosa boxing, it is quite interesting.
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Mendoza/

As far as I can tell Ringeck and Fiore are the only one to advocate striking. (do we have any strike in meyer ? that is a tad late for me)

In amy case that is what ringeck has to say:.
Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are superior/ straightforward /chiefly researched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf ston (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

So it seems to indicates that pinning was the preferred option but nothing against a good old punch, kick or knee where it hurt or breaking a bone or two if the situation requires it.

I tend to agree with tha philosophy.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Ringeck does indeed advocate punching. Mostly as an opening technique against certain critical weak points of the body though. All intended to injure or stun the opponant long enough for you to start to grapple with him, throw him to the ground and/or break a limb or two on him. Aside from those two Masters you mentioned, the Codex Wallerstein feature a whole range of defences against various punches -so there's definately an acknowledgement of punching there too. Passchen's Vollstandiges Ringbuch also feature a couple of good ole punches.

Best,