Meyer question

[Jaron Bernstein]

Can someone help me puzzle this one out:

"Item, grasp his left hand with your left, and jerk it toward you, and throw your right arm from outside over his left, and grasp his right arm with your right hand, and step with your right foot before him and swing him to your right side; thus he falls" Forgeng translation Meyer pg. 244, 3.13v.4

I have walked through this several times and it just doesn't seem to set up the right leverage or position for a good throw. It does set it up OK if you change the "before" and "right" to behind or left, but not as written. Any ideas? <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

-Could "before him" just mean in front of him as in stepping behind?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

Item, grasp his left hand with your left, and jerk it toward you, and throw your right arm from outside over his left, and grasp his right arm with your right hand, and step with your right foot before him and swing him to your right side; thus he falls" Forgeng translation Meyer pg. 244, 3.13v.4

I think there are couple thing's to look at to make this work, Balance your's and his, surprise you surprise him.

1. grasp his left with your left, jerk it toward you...

This is the initial move when you grab his left with your's and pull it towwared your left side I think a step back would help, he will most likely pull his left hand back and try to grab your left hand with his right hand.

2. and throw your right arm from outside over his left, and grasp his right arm with your right hand...

when he is grabbing at your right hand with his right hand reach over his left arm and grab his right arm /wrist.

3. and step with your right foot before him and swing him to your right side; thus he falls"

He is pulling his left arm back grabbing at your left wrist, hand, arm, you should be feeling remember Weich Und Streich when he pull's back hard go a little weak when he is a little weak pull hard on his left arm and push on his right to break his grip and pivot on your foot to pull him froward and over your right leg.

all this is situational, if your timing is off it isn't going to happen, he might even throw you backward's over his leg Speed, surprise, and strength is critical, here are a couple of other example's which are similar not exactly the same, i think it will help you see what Meyer is talking about though.

1. Meyer illustration D background left.

2. Fabian Van Aureswald Illustration 26 Von Auerswald Pl. 26

3. Petter under the section titled "The seventh part" number 6 Petter illustration

these are variation's I think of what Meyer is doing, same hand gripping same hand ie. right hand gripping right hand, left hand gripping left hand, across the body turning to drag there arm across your chest, Keep in mind these are are not magic tecnique's that are full proof and work all the time everytime, not everything Meyer does will alway's work the same for you he may have been taller, stronger, shorter, faster some of his technique's may work great for you and other's may never work for you whatever the reason.


Jeff

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

It is very difficult to try to explain techniques in text, but here goes my opinion on what Meyer is trying to do....

This throw is meant to contol both arms, making breakfalling difficult....intention is to damage with the throw or immobilize, we dont mean to enter into a floor fight with this.

The actual throw itself, is a bit like a Judo Tai-Otoshi....not an over the back/across the hips throw, but more of a spin around your body, with maybe only a small lift.

The arm movements sounds like part of what helps initiate the throw, create the momentum is some pressure on his elbow joints.

I think sometimes it helps to explain things backwards, going the other way now...

Without knowing precisely what Meyer is trying to do, I see this as a teaching tool to set up different variations off of an entry ---essetnially from a cross handed situation....left on left.

I picture this sort of execution......from a grappling posture, opponent over-reaches with left hand, which you grab and pull in while reaching over and more or less simultaneously stepping with your right foot close to parallel with his right foot (this would turn you counter clockwise) Your right hand grabs whatever it can on the other side(ideally I picture behind elbow) while turning your body to the left. His left arm is stretched across your chest, partly in a hyperextension lock, which helps to impel the throw.....the movement of which is then across the right side of your body. Depending on how deep your right hand got, opponent would land on front or back.

I think this describes how this throw would go between equal sized individuals. Against a larger opponent, I think it turns into more of an armlock against your body. Used against a smaller person, the throw I picture as being a bit more airborne, with both arms fully controlled.

Again, hard to explain movement in text, but this is how I picture the dynamics of what you are trying to describe.

[Jeff Hansen]

With the exception of "grasp his right arm with your right hand" this is essentially the 5th Twirch "horizontal stance" from plate 66 of the Codex Wallerstein. Works great.
Actually it occures to me that if There were a mistake somewhere in the copying, transcription, translation, etc. and you change it to "grasp his right LEG with your right hand" then it is the 5th twirch. Just a thought.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeff

Meyer has the grab the leg from 5th Wallerstein, he does it on the other side and right hand to right hand grab the left leg.

See Meyer illustraion C figures on the left.

Jeff

[Jeff Hansen]

Ah. I'm still waiting on my copy of meyer (Forgeng translation) to arrive from amazon UK.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hmmm. Good ideas, but I still have a problem.



The Meyer ones you describe are listed in the text. The D left rear fellow are 3.10R3 (pg 241). The arm set up is similar, and it does say you can throw him, but not which way and doesn't describe if your leg goes in front or behind him. But if you look very closely at the woodcut (I just love the print clarity in this new book), the thrower's foot is behind the throwee's, unlike the one I am trying to cipher out. That same problem exists in CW plate 66 (the thrower's foot is behind the throwee).

This makes for a fine throw and is described in great detail with the left front dudes in Meyer C (3.15v1 Pg. 245), but you are still throwing the dude backwards with your leg behind his.

The throw I am pondering has you throwing him backwards with your leg in front of him while you cross tie his arms up. How do you break his balance backwards with your leg in front of him? I guess it could be situational, but even walking through it statically it seems improbable. It would make for a really nifty forward throw, but not as described in the text.

Maybe the original scribe made an error (there are some mislabeled figures in Meyer, after all) or it is a translation question?

[JeffGentry]

Jaron

"Item, grasp his left hand with your left, and jerk it toward you, and throw your right arm from outside over his left, and grasp his right arm with your right hand, and step with your right foot before him and swing him to your right side; thus he falls"

It would make for a really nifty forward throw, but not as described in the text.

This is a forward throw over your right leg, why do you think it is a backward throw?

This indicate's he is on your right side for the throw "...swing him to your right side..."

The Meyer ones you describe are listed in the text. The D left rear fellow are 3.10R3 (pg 241). The arm set up is similar

The similarity of the arm tie up was why linked them.

If you grab his left in your left and go over his left arm and grab his right in your right, step in front and pivot(swing) around on your right foot it will take him over your leg on to his face, it is pretty much an arm bar type takedown.



Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jeff,

I am picturing it this way. You cross tie up the other guys's arms, step in front of him with your right leg. You are both facing the same direction. From there, if you throw him to his right he will go backwards. If you throw him to your left he goes forward over your leg. See what I mean?

[JeffGentry]

Jaron

"Item, grasp his left hand with your left, and jerk it toward you, and throw your right arm from outside over his left, and grasp his right arm with your right hand, and step with your right foot before him and swing him to your right side; thus he falls"

I am picturing it this way. You cross tie up the other guys's arms, step in front of him with your right leg. You are both facing the same direction. From there, if you throw him to his right he will go backwards. If you throw him to your left he goes forward over your leg.

your fine up until your both facing the same direction, if you are facing the same direction his right is your right, the word swing is realy screwing you up, how are you going to swing him to your right side? by pivoting on the right foot so just "swing him to your right side" and keep pivoting to your left down he goes right on his face.

Meyer didn't say to throw him right or left forward or backward he just say's "swing him to your right side" and there is only one way he can go that is forward over your right leg.

Jeff