The Origins of Savate?

[JohnDemick]

Ive heard in some websites that there is a possibility that Savate owes its origins to the kicking arts in Asia, when French sailors brought back techniques they had seen in the Orient, is this true?

[Mike Cartier]

I've heard that before, however Savate is quite a different beast than any other kicking art I have ever seen. very different flavor.

[Casper Bradak]

Yes, and they say the same things about the wrestling arts too. There's nothing firm to back them up though, only against them. I think it's just another example of relying on the idea that people were less intelligent or inventive in the past (at least in regards to martial arts in europe).

[robrobertson]

I'd probably classify that one with the japanese swordsmiths quenching their katana blades in prisoners so that they'll be more bloodthirsty. Practice cuts? Absolutely, Heat treating? I wouldn't waste MY time trying it! You'll most likely warp the blade, it wont cool quickly resulting in not fracturing the crystaline structure and you'll get grain growth which will weaken the blade.

Sorry, I guess I digressed there <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

It was probably an Asian who said it first. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rob

[Justin Lompado]

Savate as we know it only became an established martial art in the 19th century. Also, it differs greatly in some aspects from Asan kicking arts, such as Muay Thai. In Muay Thai, the upper part of the foot/shin is used to strike (I think), and that is because the exponents don't wear any shoes, so they protect their toes. In Savate, which was meant to be used by French citizens as defense against thugs, much focus is on the heel, which would be devestating if sturdy shoes were worn. Please forgive any innacuracies on my part. This site might help with a little clarification of what Savate is Australian Savate Homepage

[Risto Rautiainen]

Here's one text considering the history of savate: http://www.bridgemansavate.com/historical.html As has already been said, there seem to be some big differences between the oriental kicking arts and savate.

[Logan Weed]

On the contrary I've found not a single difference between Savate and Tae Kwon Do/Hapkido kicking style or individual techniques and applications. The same kicks are even used to counterattack against strikes along the same angles. Their arm position during kicks (but not so much their ene garde positions) is a little different, admittedly, but trying the French variants in my living room right now feels entirely comfortable and familiar.

There are also a lot of similarities in other areas but I'd hardly call a hip throw uniquely Savate in relation to other European systems.

I especially enjoy this picture. Note the exchange in the left foreground - I've practiced it countless times. It's a low thrust kick to the knee or shin evaded by what we call the 'swan' position which is quite a dynamic chamber. The chambering of the arms is also exactly the same, ours is just more over the chest than the head but it really doesn't matter much.

This is one of the first kick traps &amp; defense against it you learn in Hapkido (refering to my native system of Hapkido, of course). The kick is caught in a cross block after stepping back to avoid it so that with heel can be twisted around, throwing the kicker to the ground. The response is then to drop and roll with the action - simultaneously pushing yourself off the ground with your hands as you execute a turning sidekick to the head, kneck or solar plexus.

One thing I'll never understand about Savate however is why they insist on all this tight, form fitting clothing. Loose pants just look so much cooler and make that fancy ruffling sound...

Edit: Now that I've taken a closer look at the ankle I'm pretty sure that's a crescent, not a thrust.

[Dan Kanagie]

Actually it is called teh "Coup de Pied Bas" and is delivered in a sweeping motion forward from the hip. It is not a chambered kick. Very similar to a Baseball coach kicking dirt on the Ump, except here you actually make contact. The target area is the inside of the shin bone where the bone and muscle come into contact. The striking area is the inside of the of the foot. Alot of happy little nerve endings there. Go to the Australian Savate website. Craig has an excellent article on the Pied Bas.
The second pic is a counter to a grabing of the foot and stepping back to bring them off balance. The hands a placed on the ground in front of you so as you are pulled back, you still have reach with the foot.
I too have noticed alot of similarities between TKD and Savate. But there are many diferences. The Foutte in Savate, which is compared to the roundhouse kick in TKD, is performed with the toes of the shoe. The difference was descibed by Dan Inosato as this, A Roundhouse is like getting hit with a bat, a Fouette is like getting hit with a hammer. Very acurate IMHO. True Savate, not the modern sport, was to be performed with shoes/boots. The striking surfase is the hard areas of the shoe, ie. sole, heel, toes, edge. For a modern look at the kicks, check out Bruce Lee's Toa of Jeet Kun Do. He took alot from Savate/DDLR.

[G.MatthewWebb]

Has anyone any experience with Craig Gemeiner's savate, personally or through using his DVD's on savate or cane fighting? His website is interesting. I especially like the old late 19th and early 20th century illustrations he has posted from the old French-language manuals.

Does anyone here practice savate or cane fighting?

Matthew Webb
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
USA

[Michael W Gooch]

Ive heard in some websites that there is a possibility that Savate owes its origins to the kicking arts in Asia, when French sailors brought back techniques they had seen in the Orient, is this true?

There is no precedent for savate type kicks in any Asian text I've ever seen. Not in the Bubishi or Chapaserat. IMHO karate and kungfu learned their kicks from savateurs. In the case of karate Japanese exchange students returning from France brought back the style of kicking commonly associated with karate.

[kenneth house]

Ive heard in some websites that there is a possibility that Savate owes its origins to the kicking arts in Asia, when French sailors brought back techniques they had seen in the Orient, is this true?

There is no precedent for savate type kicks in any Asian text I've ever seen. Not in the Bubishi or Chapaserat. IMHO karate and kungfu learned their kicks from savateurs. In the case of karate Japanese exchange students returning from France brought back the style of kicking commonly associated with karate.

It is my belief that Savate and Chausson owe their origins to African derived arts such as Mrenge/Morinque/Morengy, with its toe kicks (such as the Tipaka in Morengy of Madgascar) to "Nyembes" (African/Songye for nerves) points, and Danmye, both of which have within their repetoire toe point kicks. In Martinique, during the period of Plantocracy on the island, prior to 1848 (the Abolition of Slavery there), Danmye, the performative name of Ladja, was called Ladja De La Morte, or Ladja of Death, because plantation owners forced Ladja Majo (experts in Danmye/Ladja) to fight to the death (like fighting roosters), where the owners would watch and place bets. This was later banned, but there are lithograghs, and quotes of onlookers, from both Martinique and the Comoros, wherein French elite and commoners watched these bouts. In the case of Mrenge, at least on Reunion (Morinque), French and Indian residents of the island (those least economically affluent) later participated in Morinque bouts.

Likewise, the acrobatic nature of Chausson seems to indicate an African origin. The idea that French sailors, to avoid the problems engendered by the pitching of vessels while kicking, braced their hands on the sides of their ships, does not seem to be strong enough evidence to support this contention. The lithograghs which show French sailors watching these bouts aboard ship shows the onlookers in rather casual, upright postures, not clinging for dear life while watching a bout. Further, if a vessel is pitching that much, it does not appear to be conducive to any activity other than naval concerns.

But, that's just according to my research.

Fraternal,

KH

[Mike Cartier]

I think its a mistake to look at an art and say , well that sorta looks like this so they must be related. Without proof any ideas of where savate came from are purely theoretical. The only thing feel is proven is that it probably had a start in the Basque area.

I see nothing to link it to any Asian system, nor do i see anything to link savate as the core of any asian system. Likewise for the African.

Humans figure out where to fight all on thier own.

[kenneth house]

I think its a mistake to look at an art and say , well that sorta looks like this so they must be related. Without proof any ideas of where savate came from are purely theoretical. The only thing feel is proven is that it probably had a start in the Basque area.

I see nothing to link it to any Asian system, nor do i see anything to link savate as the core of any asian system. Likewise for the African.

Humans figure out where to fight all on thier own.

To begin with, my perception is based upon info. gleaned during my extensive research into, and practice of, African martial arts.

Likewise, it is an opinion, no more or less authoritative than saying that it "probably" developed in Basque country. There is nothing hard and fast about it, but is interesting that the west often finds nothing wrong with claiming a foreign practice as Western, such as the comments on this thread that Savate is probably the precursor of Asian kicking methods.

There are some significant questions historians will have to answer regarding its origins before any hard and fast conclusions can be drawn.

Likewise, prior to Charlemonte and other French authorities in the art, its origins are cloudy at best, with French "thugs" (whomever these might have been) being the supposed creators. In the end, we may never know for sure. It is highly unlikely to be anything but Western, just as Capoeira/Nzanga/Ongolo is African no matter where it was taken.

All told, I respect its apparently Western origins and am gald to share culturally in this sort of discourse.

Fraternal,

KH

[J. F. McBrayer]

Given the cultural and chronological context of the origins of savate, I would not be surprised if it had North African influences, or any of a number of others. Being influenced by something isn't the same as being derived from them, though. Savate may be naturally syncretic in kind of the same way that Bartitsu is intentionally syncretic. I'm by no means an expert in this area; I'm just commenting on what's plausible.

[kenneth house]

Given the cultural and chronological context of the origins of savate, I would not be surprised if it had North African influences, or any of a number of others. Being influenced by something isn't the same as being derived from them, though. Savate may be naturally syncretic in kind of the same way that Bartitsu is intentionally syncretic. I'm by no means an expert in this area; I'm just commenting on what's plausible.

Agreed.

KH