Old School "MMA" competitions/ history

[Kevin Holmes]

Hello,
I am a highschool student that is very interested in MMA. I am a practitioner of Muay Thai, Modern Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and Wrestling. What i would like to know about is the large gap from Pankration until the days of bare knuckle boxing and the rules set place in the 1800's which made it what it is today.

Thanks,

Kevin holmes

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hello,
I am a highschool student that is very interested in MMA. I am a practitioner of Muay Thai, Modern Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and Wrestling. What i would like to know about is the large gap from Pankration until the days of bare knuckle boxing and the rules set place in the 1800's which made it what it is today.

Thanks,

Kevin holmes

Well, there are plenty of manuals that cover the unarmed art in the period you describe.......

[Randall Pleasant]

Kevin

Check out the book Codex Wallerstein: A Medieval Fighting Book from the Fifteenth Century on the Longsword, Falchion, Dagger, and Wrestling by Grzegorz Zabinski and Bartlomiej Walczak (Paladin Press 2002). Also take a look at the article Paulus Hector Mair's Ars Gladiatoris and Modern Military Combatives by David Knight (http://www.paulushectormair.com/CQC_PHM.htm). In these and other works you will see many of the techniques that you are currently studying.

[Kevin Holmes]

Thank you for the reply and books. Has there been any sort of competitions for Ringen or anything else from back in that day? I read there was a sort of prize fighting during the 17th and 18th centuries. Thanks once again, i appreciate allof the help.

[Allen Johnson]

Prize fights were a big part of English traditions. Read Terry Brown's "English Martial Arts" for more on this. These were, however, mostly armed competetions featuring a variety of weapons.

I think through history there has ALWAYS been the equivalent of unarmed fighting and most likley competetions.

Here are some more links from our mauals section:
German 1505 wrestling: http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Wurm/Wurm.htm
1659 German wrestling and self defence:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Passchen/Passchen.htm

[philippewillaume]

Hello

I think Allen is spot on the only caveat I would use is that most of the 15th century master told us that the art should not be spread so what there is in medieval manuscript is probably not what was used commonly.

That being said there was plenty of local wrestling/catch as catch can, what it looked like is an other question.

phil

[Allen Johnson]

Im not challenging your statement on 15th century masters saying that it (the art) shouldnt be spread- but I am curious as to who said that and the reason why?

[philippewillaume]

Hello allen
No problem ( I have talked rubbish before )
purely from memory
Vadi, (for the whole art) should not be spread to peasant
In the lichtanauer tradition, the secret is usually associated with wrestling in armour. (verborgen ringen). That should not be shown in public demonstation or public classes.

philippe

[Jake_Norwood]

I'll throw my 2c on a possible reason why...

Martial Arts, used in war, keep you alive and make your enemy dead. If your enemy knows how you fight they can either mimic it (bad) or counter it (worse). It's really just OPSEC, preventing the "enemy" from gaining "intelligence" as to how you conduct "war."

Except now you can apply it on a smaller level, so that even people in your hometown might be enemies, not just some other "state."

Make sense?

Jake

[Kevin Holmes]

Thanks for all of the responses. DOes anyone have any complaints if i use your information presented/suggested in a paper as long as i site correctly?