The "Americana" in Goliath Dagger

[Jeffrey Hull]

Bruch can just as easily mean either "break" or "counter" depending on the context of a given German technique -- perhaps even some of both, again depending. This may present a bit of confusion especially with the wrestling and daggering.

[philippewillaume]

Hello
The text says so wirffstu im and brich im den arm.
Ie so you throw him and break his arms.

Brechen is to break either a bone or a technique most of the time its is always qualified to some degree so that we can be pretty sure in what context it is to be used. In this case it is breaking the arm and to throw the guy

As people have said this is the wrestling the sword in Ringeck as well. (Where it is really more of a throw).
Item, wann ainer dem andern(44 r) eynlaufft, so far mitt lincker verkörter hand über sinen rechten arm vnd begryff da mitt dinen rechten arm; vnd druck mitt dinem rechten arm sinen rechten über dinen lincken, vnd spring mitt dinem rechten fu°ß hinder sinen rechten, vnd wende dich von im vff dine lincke sytten: so wirffestu in über din rechten hüffe.

When one is running-in at each other, so go with your inverted left hand over his right arm and link with your right arm. And press his right arm with your right (arm) over your left (arm), and jump with your right foot behind his right, and turn yourself from him onto your left side and you throw him over your right hip.


Ps the title of the plate is aber ein stuck (yet a piece; another piece)

[mike willus]

This technique...the americana in BJJ, or a "key lock" in american style submission grappling is usually not done stand up.

In an unarmed situation, there is very little cause for any skilled opponent, or even unskilled to fall for this...infact, it is rare for anyone with any skill to fall for this on the ground. It is a move used on beginers and those that arent adept at grappling. Sometimes an extremely strong opponent can apply it to a smaller, weaker man of equal skill by wearing him down.

This being said, i can definitly see it as being more common in a fight with weapons...(sticks, knives, hatchets, and the like). I think the thing is this....it is not very likely to produce a dislocation or break from the stand up position. It seems unlikely against skilled opposition to land in a full mount and apply the technique on the gorund.

I think the thing to do would be to step behind the opponents near leg...possibly in a judo wreaping fashin...and use the "key lock" grip to throw/drive as hard as one can. This drive however should be more of a rotation to produce dislocation rather then trying to force the opponent to the ground. I think, either the arm pops or your opponent falls...but quickness and explosion are paramount. Other wise, your opponent could end up taking your back or applying juji-gatame from a guard like position off the back after he falls.

[philippewillaume]

Hello mike.
We can break/dislocate the arm/elbow, this is the principle behind shiho nage and kote geishi (or the bone breaking in ringeck). There is no need to go to the ground in guard position. (if that was the case the text would say it)

This works by locking the forarm at the wrist and elbow, that will create the tention in the forearm and lever it against the olecrane.

To break we just need to drive outward the body of our opponent. If we drive towards his back then we will produce a throw.

phil

[Jay Vail]

Hello mike.
We can break/dislocate the arm/elbow, this is the principle behind shiho nage and kote geishi (or the bone breaking in ringeck). There is no need to go to the ground in guard position. (if that was the case the text would say it)

This works by locking the forarm at the wrist and elbow, that will create the tention in the forearm and lever it against the olecrane.

To break we just need to drive outward the body of our opponent. If we drive towards his back then we will produce a throw.

phil

Phillipe, the real question is have you actually done it in real combat or do you know someone who has. Until you can say either thing, you should be cautious about what you assert on this or any other forum.

[philippewillaume]

Well real combat, no not quite, but again France is not at war so.
To answer you question yes I have broken/strained a few things on people (outside training that it) during my life. (And got few thing seriously strained as well, but well you can not win them all).
And yes I personally know people who broke people with “that”. (In fact, I believe that the tokyo riot police currently does).
But that does not really proves anything does it?

A little bit like buggery or shooting oneself in the foot, one do not need to do it to understand that it is going to hurt and where.

I train 3 times a week, in aikido and for what it is worth I am shodan.
I have given and receive over five years of kote geishi and shihonague.
Those two technique work on the same principle which I believe is the same as that throw and the same as in Ringeck arm break. (and in the Ringeck wrestling at the sword)
The only difference is kote gishi is more like to get your wrist or your shoulder and shihonague your elbow and yes in akido you apply theme so that you can gratefully ukemi out of them.

I understand you have done that technique hard against some one and you believe it is bind. And you probably train as hard if not harder than I do, and possibly you hold a higher grade than I do in you respective art.(which I believe is probably BJJ/MMA related) and I can really accept that from your own experience it can really only be a pin.

I can understand that you are sceptical, However the text tells us that this is a blooming break, and believe that we can break the arm from there.

No we can have a “Oy, you split my pint”and see who can piss the further on the forum or more if affinities or take that in a more gentlemanly fashion.
if so would you mind try the following:
It is just to show what cause the breack, it is not really the technique per say.
Your partner has to be relax ad go with you.

Have you partner extand his hand open as if he was going to shake a hand. (lest use the right)
Place yourself at facing 90 degree outside his centre line at arm length on the side where he has extended his hand all that at the level of his hand.
Ie you are facing the back of his extend hand)

Take his extended wrist with your left hand, the grip is from above with the thmb at between the wrist bone of his annular and his pinkie’

Bring back your elbow to your body and rotate your left hand so that your thumb become vertical (you partne should realing his centreline from 90 to 45 roward yours (you haven moved yet)
You have taken the slack out his fore arm. In other way you have rotated his elbow close to it maximum rotation point
No being you left hand to your side with changing the orientation of you grip (that will stretch his arm and remove more slak, so stop when he still has a bit of slak)

Now pass with the right foot and grab his right hand (the same we have since the beginning) with you right hand this is a reverse grip (ie with the thumb down) you grip just over the thumb of your left hand.

Make sure that your right elbow his close to your side. And press hi hand toward the direction of hi back slowly.
He should be able to break fall from that.

Now if you do the same thing with your right elbow under his, then you press his hand backward as before but away from his body you have taken away the possibility he has to break fall (well he can still goes over the top be well) and all the stress will be on his wrist in that case.
But if with you right had using the same grip you will grab the arm instead of the hand and rotate you will break the elbow (or straight or dislocate it).
so basically the less we support the elbow the more we thow and the more we support the elbow the move the break.

I am sorry if I explained you how to suck eggs but this is this type of break the we can achieve from the grip in the picture.
(ie this is the same type of stress on the articulation the forces are different. The example I use is the 4th bone break of ringeck or a mixt between kote gaishi and shihonague).

hopefully, that should clarify what i meant


“Phoney”phil

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

This technique...the americana in BJJ, or a "key lock" in american style submission grappling is usually not done stand up.

Most technique's that can be done on the ground can in some form or other be done standing, It is just a whole lot harder.

This being a dagger plate, I have more than once used my dagger hand to block an over stick exactly like he does here, I have not brought the left hand through for the Top wrist lock/upper keylock/Americana, whatever name you use.

You would have to be much quicker than I at this point.

Jeff