Double Leg Takedown

[Matt Bryant]

What I am referring to as the Double Leg Takedown is when you grab your opponent behind his knees with both your hands and throw him down. This is depicted in the Codex Wallerstein plates 41, 83, and 200. I can see a few different ways to perform this. For instance, there is wrapping up your opponents legs and squeezing his knees together (the thrower in plate 41 seems to be doing this) or just hooking the back of his knees with your hands (as in plates 83 and 200). I can also see this as either a pulling/lifting motion, a violent, Einlaufen type of maneuver, or a fine mixture of both.

In all the fechtbucher that I have looked at, I notice that the thrower uses his head to hit/push the torso of his opponent. However, I was told that this is a bad idea because it leaves you open to get your head punched and that you should tuck your head beside your opponent's torso in order to avoid this. Doing this puts in a perfect position to get head locked and pulled down on your face though.

What are your thoughts on this technique and the issue of what to do with your head during it?

[Randall Pleasant]

Matt

At the ARMA Internationa Event in 2003 I was taken down by Gary G. (ARMA NJ) with a Double Leg Takedown. We still laugh about that take down because I took Gary's dagger and stabed him in the back on the way down. However, in truth I was only able to do that because Gary took me down slowly so as to not crack my head. I think if Gary had applied that the Double Leg Takedown with full power and speed I probably would not have been able to grab his dagger nor punch him in the head - and my head would have been cracked.


Gary

I don't think I ever said thanks for the control.

[LynGrey]

Oooo.. double leg takedown.. my area of expertise =)

First off... DLT is a very very FAST and Deceptive atttack. Well all shots, (the process to get low, and grab the legs,) have to be fast and deceptive to work properly.

The proper technique is to step with your lead foot between your oppentents feet, level change, and shot in, grab behind the knees, use your shoulder to push his hip and drive your head to the outside of his weak hand. Some people like to pull the knees together as the pull them back. The head is crucial tho, this places your head in a odd spot to strike and under the weak hand thus eliminating alot of hazards. I know someone is going to say it "What about knees to the face" And here is the general answer, first off a knee is an occupational hazard of making a shot... second the goal is to pull your feet of the ground and drive your back into the ground... when you knee.. you are taking ONE of your feet of the ground, you've done half the work for me. Plus its hard to knee some in a good shot, off your heel and off balance. With a guilitine or a head lock, these aren't so bad if you know what you are doing, if you are making the shot at the right angles and getting in good position none of these will do much good for the one defending the shot, and you'll waste alot of strength on trying to maintain the hold. Also having your face hit the ground shouldn't be much of a possiblity if your shoulder is in his hip, also you know you are going down, plus the back of his skull bouncing off the ground is alot more painfu has much more KO powerl. Anybody worth their salt making a shot is going to have chin tucked, and mouth shut when they do it.

As far as doing DLT someone potientially with a dagger or something, thats the worst thing you want to do, its a very bad idea to take a fight to a clinch or the ground when you know they have a knife/dagger. Its hard to grapple with a few lacerations and a couple inches of steel in you.

Also most DLT are set-up'd: with a quick jab, or a flick of the hand, or from inside the clinch.

In theory it seems you can do alot to someone tring to takedown, but doing anything besides fall breaking can be bad news for you when they get you down. If in armor and it came to unarmed combat, the sprawl and brawl technique is out really, cause i myself am not toing to punch a guy wearing mail or plate, let alone wonder it its going to hurt him. You could Sprawl to advoid or Sparwl and pancake which are good options. The best way to advoid a takedown is just not be there or your legs not be there... ie SPRAWL!!! (waits for eveyrbody to sprawl)

I hope this gives you insight to your query.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Matt

Lynn covered it pretty well, i will add a few comment's to what she said, when done right like Lynn described you will hit them were they bend ie shoulder to waist, hand's behind there knee's, when this happen's they realy have no choice but to go down, you can also use your head to help hook them to the side so you end up in side control when you land no gaurd pass required, If you are doing it properly you could most likely turn the corner on a missed shot(also known as a duck under or in ringen running through under the arm) and come up beside/behind them and go ahead and back cast/supplex them to get them on the ground face down, this is not uncommon in wrestling match's.

Jeff

[Shane Smith]

Matt

At the ARMA Internationa Event in 2003 I was taken down by Gary G. (ARMA NJ) with a Double Leg Takedown. We still laugh about that take down because I took Gary's dagger and stabed him in the back on the way down. However, in truth I was only able to do that because Gary took me down slowly so as to not crack my head. I think if Gary had applied that the Double Leg Takedown with full power and speed I probably would not have been able to grab his dagger nor punch him in the head - and my head would have been cracked.


Gary

I don't think I ever said thanks for the control.

I don't know Ran, it sure looked like you were leaning down onto him and dragging him backwards to my eye as you casually took the dagger from his waistband and skewered him. That's what made it so darn funny!

[Allen Johnson]

I'm not sure if can be considered the same thing, but I have had some sucsess wrapping up the opponents legs a little below the knee and pushing the my shoulder into their shin to take them down. To make this work you really need to drive into the push with your legs and lift only slightly.

[Stewart Sackett]

Oooo.. double leg takedown.. my area of expertise =)
As far as doing DLT someone potientially with a dagger or something, thats the worst thing you want to do, its a very bad idea to take a fight to a clinch or the ground when you know they have a knife/dagger. Its hard to grapple with a few lacerations and a couple inches of steel in you.

I’m no expert on the double leg & I wouldn’t want to take a knife fight to the ground but I have to disagree with your characterization of the clinch.

I can’t think of anything more dangerous in a knife fight than standing at range & trying to play ‘matador’. In my opinion the safest option is to clinch, get a 2-on-1 & isolate the knife arm.

[LynGrey]

I'm not sure if can be considered the same thing, but I have had some sucsess wrapping up the opponents legs a little below the knee and pushing the my shoulder into their shin to take them down. To make this work you really need to drive into the push with your legs and lift only slightly.

Thats the "John Smith Ankle Pick" I was going to elaborate on that too but decided it would derail.

This technicque you have to be really quick to do from the start, but its brutal. I like to use it if my DLT wasn't secure enough, or if they manage to sparwl a bit, I'll slide down and wrap my hand around the ankle and pull while i drive my shoulder right below the knee, with my had on the outside. This forces the oppenent to chose, dislocate knee or fall down, most choose the later =)

Following the duck under its probably better to do a read body clinch and follow and take down with a rear clinch trip, basically drag them to one side and drag themover your leg, and WHAM! It requies alot less strength. But i like the good ole grecco-roman takedowns too =) You culd also fireman carry and put them down where ever you please.. like a big rock, a corner, somethign sharp =)

I’m no expert on the double leg & I wouldn’t want to take a knife fight to the ground but I have to disagree with your characterization of the clinch.

I can’t think of anything more dangerous in a knife fight than standing at range & trying to play ‘matador’. In my opinion the safest option is to clinch, get a 2-on-1 & isolate the knife arm.
As far as going into a knife fight in the clinch, yeah you can think what ever you want, i'm saying it unwise to bring yourself closer to the harm. I would try to take or disarm the weapon in free movement rather than clinch or grapple up, that dangerous stuff with a knife. At range, they got to bring it to you, thats when you set everything up. I rather stick to could round kicks and soften them up and when they get ticked off and rush in.. good by knife threat. The problem is, in a clinch or grapple the knife weilder doesn't have to have any skill with it to cause LEATHAL amounts of damage, al lhe has to do is get the knife between you and him and its over.

Also guys.. remove the S from she please =)

[JeffGentry]

Gent's

I'll slide down and wrap my hand around the ankle and pull while i drive my shoulder right below the knee, with my had on the outside. This forces the oppenent to chose, dislocate knee or fall down, most choose the later =)

Kazushi Sakuraba has used this a couple of time's in Pride FC, his back ground in wrestling.


The Codex Wallerstein has a couple of counter's to getting caught when doing a DLT.

You culd also fireman carry and put them down where ever you please.. like a big rock, a corner, somethign sharp =)

CW also show's this as do many other manual's.




Sport wrestling can realy teach us quit a bit.


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Oooo.. double leg takedown.. my area of expertise =)

First off... DLT is a very very FAST and Deceptive atttack. Well all shots, (the process to get low, and grab the legs,) have to be fast and deceptive to work properly.

The proper technique is to step with your lead foot between your oppentents feet, level change, and shot in, grab behind the knees, use your shoulder to push his hip and drive your head to the outside of his weak hand. Some people like to pull the knees together as the pull them back. The head is crucial tho, this places your head in a odd spot to strike and under the weak hand thus eliminating alot of hazards. I know someone is going to say it "What about knees to the face" And here is the general answer, first off a knee is an occupational hazard of making a shot... second the goal is to pull your feet of the ground and drive your back into the ground... when you knee.. you are taking ONE of your feet of the ground, you've done half the work for me. Plus its hard to knee some in a good shot, off your heel and off balance. With a guilitine or a head lock, these aren't so bad if you know what you are doing, if you are making the shot at the right angles and getting in good position none of these will do much good for the one defending the shot, and you'll waste alot of strength on trying to maintain the hold. Also having your face hit the ground shouldn't be much of a possiblity if your shoulder is in his hip, also you know you are going down, plus the back of his skull bouncing off the ground is alot more painfu has much more KO powerl. Anybody worth their salt making a shot is going to have chin tucked, and mouth shut when they do it.

As far as doing DLT someone potientially with a dagger or something, thats the worst thing you want to do, its a very bad idea to take a fight to a clinch or the ground when you know they have a knife/dagger. Its hard to grapple with a few lacerations and a couple inches of steel in you.

Also most DLT are set-up'd: with a quick jab, or a flick of the hand, or from inside the clinch.

In theory it seems you can do alot to someone tring to takedown, but doing anything besides fall breaking can be bad news for you when they get you down. If in armor and it came to unarmed combat, the sprawl and brawl technique is out really, cause i myself am not toing to punch a guy wearing mail or plate, let alone wonder it its going to hurt him. You could Sprawl to advoid or Sparwl and pancake which are good options. The best way to advoid a takedown is just not be there or your legs not be there... ie SPRAWL!!! (waits for eveyrbody to sprawl)

I hope this gives you insight to your query.

hello lyn
Just to say that Ringeck does agree with you all the way.
Aber ain ringen.
Another wrestling
Item, schlach vß mitt bayden henden; vnd fall mitt bayden henden in baid knybüg, vnd züch zu dir, vnd stoß in mitt dem kopff oben für die brüst, vnd wirff in zu ruck.

Item strike out with either/both hands and fall with on either/both hand on both knee-bend and drag toward you, and shoot in with the head on the top over the breast and throw him backward.

As you said set it up with strike, personally I think that “stoß in mitt dem kopff oben für die brüst” means tuck your head in when you throw him.

Ain bruch wider daß ringen.
A break against the wrestling
Item, also brich daß: faß in oben by dem halß vnder den yechsen, vnd leg dich fast oben vff in. Vnd tritt wol zu ruck mitt den füssen, das er dir kainen begryffen müg, so truckst du in zu der erden.

Item you break this like so: grab him by the neck under the (jeschsen=lechzen) jaws or skull, and press fast over him, and take a good step backwards with the feet that may not grab/engage you, hence you drive him to the ground.


Exactly what lyn said.

Philippe.

[Jay Vail]

The double leg takedown or shoot is a devastating and effective technique.

However, it has its weaknesses, like every other technique. In fact there are numerous ways to break it.

One is the well known sprawl, which is illustrated in the Codex Wallerstein and which you have undoubtedly seen in MMA videos.

Another is the roll-back, where (as soon as you perceive him going down on you) you grab him anyway you can and perform a backward roll. I have seen this done many times and have done it myself, so I can tell you it is an effective counter.

Another is a knee to the face as he enters. There is a well known MMA video where a wrestler is defeated because he continued to open ever round with an attempt at the two leg takedown. His opponent simply anticipated his attack and kneed him as he came in.

A third method is the head crank, where you take his chin in one hand and the back of his head in the other and just turn his head sharply. This will cause him to let go and roll onto his back. If he doesn't you break his neck. Seen it done.

A fourth method involves striking one of his arms away and securing the lower bind..

I also know of an instance in street combat where a double leg takedown was attempted and met with a simple punch in the face, which ended the fight.

Mike Cartier has a story to tell about a guy who insisted on wrestling him in a street fight with the double leg take down.

There is no reason to be intimidated by the double leg take down.

[Matt Bryant]

So are there any verifiable Renaissance sources that describe tucking the head to the side during this technique?

Couldn't:
"vnd stoß in mitt dem kopff oben für die brüst, vnd wirff in zu ruck."

also be translated as:
"and stab/strike him with your head over for the chest, and throw him back"?

That seems to imply performing the technique just as Codex Wallerstein:
"...puck dich resch vor im nyder und stoss in mit dem kopf foren in dye prust oder auf den pauch..."

which could translate to:
"bend yourself quickly in front of him, low, and strike/stab him with your head in the chest or on the stomach."

In the end, it honestly doesn't matter as long as you throw the guy down and have your martial way with him. I only ask this nit-picky question because I hear of so many people performing it in this way, but have not been able to find a source for it. It would seem that when given little information concerning a technique, some might fall back on previous, non-Renaissance martial arts experience.

[LynGrey]

There is no reason to be intimidated by the double leg take down.

never faced me have ya =)

[Shane Smith]

There is no reason to be intimidated by the double leg take down.

never faced me have ya =)

I'm not unduly frightened either. I know what grappling is and how it works so therefore, I am comfortable facing it when strikes are allowed in earnest and testicle grabs and eye-gouges aren't off limits.

Seriously though, everyone in RMA needs to be familiar with more than just swordplay because you cannot wholely divorce the excercise of arms from the strikes and gapplings that are part and parcel of historically-accurate martial combat with swords. To be a complete fighter, you must be competent in both armed and unarmed methods. That is non-negotiable in my opinion.

[Jay Vail]

There is no reason to be intimidated by the double leg take down.

never faced me have ya =)

I hope you were smiling when you wrote that.