Follow up techniques to an elbow smash.

[Jay Vail]

You forgot the most important lesson from my street experience.
You can't always plan how you will fight..

No, Mike. I haven't forgotten. You are absolutely right. You have to adapt to the attack, merge with it, and thus, defeat it. That is what I've been trying to say. You can't really set up people for a defeat. You exploit their vulnerabilities to defeat them.

[philippewillaume]

Hello, ran

I do not think the goliath (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/187.jpg ) is an elbow smash, as I am not sure the purpose it to break the elbow if you see what I mean. I believe the purpose is to gain control of the weapon hand.

Basically i think it is a form of nikkio, that is what the text and the picture make me think of.
With our left hand, we trap his wrist against our body as we press down with our right elbow on his left elbow. Basically, we rotate the wrist one way and we rotate the elbow the other (this is nikkio ie the 2nd principle)
In our case we hold the wrist firm and drop the elbow.
That is very painful and drastically limit the option you have with your armed hand

As we go across with our own body and push down with our elbow that will bring our opponent forward and we will be able to catch his dagger arms with our right hand.
Or if that file let our elbow silde and garb with et left hand to finish nikkio so that we can ground him and pin him using the second pin in ringeck(knee in the elbow and elbow on the neck so that we can gain control of the armed arms).

Just my two cents

phil

[Jay Vail]

Hello, ran

I do not think the goliath (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/187.jpg ) is an elbow smash, as I am not sure the purpose it to break the elbow if you see what I mean. I believe the purpose is to gain control of the weapon hand.

Basically i think it is a form of nikkio, that is what the text and the picture make me think of.
With our left hand, we trap his wrist against our body as we press down with our right elbow on his left elbow. Basically, we rotate the wrist one way and we rotate the elbow the other (this is nikkio ie the 2nd principle)
In our case we hold the wrist firm and drop the elbow.
That is very painful and drastically limit the option you have with your armed hand

As we go across with our own body and push down with our elbow that will bring our opponent forward and we will be able to catch his dagger arms with our right hand.
Or if that file let our elbow silde and garb with et left hand to finish nikkio so that we can ground him and pin him using the second pin in ringeck(knee in the elbow and elbow on the neck so that we can gain control of the armed arms).

Just my two cents

phil

Phillipe, this is not nikkyo. It is an attack against the elbow. There are no examples in the Euro manuals showing wrist locks, as far as I know, and I've looked for them. I wish it were otherwise, but it is not.

J

[philippewillaume]

Phillipe, this is not nikkyo. It is an attack against the elbow. There are no examples in the Euro manuals showing wrist locks, as far as I know, and I've looked for them. I wish it were otherwise, but it is not.

J

Hello jay.
May be I am totally mistaken but I think you have in mind the traditional, katate dori (opposite hand grab) nikkio where you trap the hand with your opposite hand against the arm it hold and where you are using the hand originally grabbed goes over and across.
It is true that in many aikido styles, you will only see the control version of the principle.
And all that make it look like a wrist lock.
But for ikkio, nikkio, sankkio, gokio rokio, you have a break, a projection and control technique and a pin.

If you take picture as it is, save by using our right hand instead of the right elbow, you have one version of mune dori (lapel grab) nikkio. (How official it is, really depends on what school/organisation you belong too). In fact you can get nikkio by grabbing the arm or the elbow over or under.

The best to convince your self that nikkio is not really a wrist lock, is to extend your right arm and turn your hand so that your thumb is down.
Grab that hand wit you left hand, you left tumb on top of the blade of yopur right hand.
You will be able to try to over turn to the left it is not pain full , in fact you will be able to move you right hand still holding it with yopur left where ever you please (albeit the normal laws of physic and bilogie)
How ever if you bring you right hand close to your chest and you then drop your elbow, pain will start. even more so if ypu ask some one to push on your elbow.
And as far as i understood that is what nikkio is all about .
Basially you can optain it by isolating/locking the elbow and moving the wrist (the case in katate dori or locking th wrist and moving the elbow or moving them both in opposite direction.

I would transcribe the text like so
Ein armbruch
Greifft dir einer vorn bey dem goller, Do grief im mitt deims linken vornen in das glench und reiss im umb unt setz im demen recht arm auf sein linken arm aussen auf sin elbogen glench un stoss indes zur erden (so.y.im.d an) und drit im auf dem stos auf dein recht und nimt des stichts mitt der rechten.?. domit du im im .e y stosst

And for me it does not tell us to strike the arm, we just set at the elbow and we then “stoss” that is why for me it is more than nikkio than an arm strike if you see what I mean. The setting can be a forceful strike but you may break/dislocate/strain the wirst or the elbow (or even the radius or more likely the ulnea)

phil
Ps i hope that made sense

[LynGrey]

Well first off... the defense of grabbing the hand that is not the threat is a little unorthadox and kind of useless... if you snap that elbow the attcker is still probably follow through.

Either way i would try to get my left on his right to hold it down and just repeatily side elbow my oppoenent till he drops, if the elbow misses hammer fist.... and keep going till he's twitching on the ground.

[philippewillaume]

Hello lynn, sorry for the late reply, I missed your comments

If you considered the wrist hold on it own yes you are right, and that is precisely why there is no point of doing it on its own.

It is much quicker and more efficient to break/dislocate the elbow that way.
You do not really have to strike per se. Though, as my grand mother say technique is just a way to make the use of my brute strength easier.

To break something easily, you need two support point and an application of force in the opposite direction

By grabbing the forearm/wrist you are creating that second support point, (the first one being the shoulder). Basically you are forcing the elbow/forearm articulation beyond the point it is designed to work if you have the wrist you ad the wrist/forearm articulation.

So you wont have to strike the elbow repeatedly until he twitched on the floor once will be enough.
To get an idea, if you can go to an aikido club and ask them to apply nickkio from morote dori (shoulder grab) or muni dori (or lapel grab)
Or go in JJ club but I do not know how the call that.


Depending of the style they are doing in the club it may be a little bit artistic in the way to get there if you forget the possible pantness of the fluffy kitten approach, you should see what I mean about this technique.

That being said you are right both the wrist/forearm and elbow lock should be coming on at the same time. (If you want proper control/break, it should really be the case for all techniques using arm bar, wrist/elbow or arm control)

Philippe