Kampfringen Training.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

Are there any ARMA groups out there that do serious Kampfringen training?

By serious I mean pad work for striking and drilling with resistance for the grappling work. Do you integrate the dagger or treat it separately?

So far at Stoccata we have been drilling the strikes and strike defences for the most part from the Codex Wallerstein.

Lets get this forum going.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

We spend a lot of time going over techniques and then free-wrestling on the grass. Our group is pretty large (15-20 folks per practice), and about 5 or so of us wrestle very frequently. We only just started this about 3 months ago.

Our ringen curriculum is mostly Ringeck with some Wallerstein and Talhoffer. We began working with Fiore this week as well.

We have 2 or 3 guys that were pretty serious wrestlers in high school (we're a college group) and 2 or 3 more that have done some asian stuff on the ground (ju-jitsu, etc). That keeps us a bit safer, and the grass is pretty soft out here, too. We don't practice throws with any real speed because of the lack of pads, though, nor do we spend any time really striking. We do encourage a bit of slap-boxing when free-grappling in order to remind each other that we're open. That seems to work pretty well, and I'm beginning to feel like a competent open-hand fighter now.

About 4 of us regularly train with the rondel as well, but more as a side-line or diversion to straight grappling.

Jake

[Jay Vail]

I regularly practice dagger defense from Fiore, which is exclusively wrestling. We use wooden dagger wasters. We do it in pairs form practice -- daggerman makes a strike and the defender responds. It is dangerous doing this full speed because of the risk to the daggerman's joints. It is very easy to hyperextend an elbow if you are too rough. I have known people permanently crippled by their training partners doing this stuff, so I like to be careful.

I also have a small crash pad for doing throws, but have rarely used it.

[Guest]

Well,

Keith Myers and his study group in DC have certainly done a lot of good work with interpreting and learning Kampfringen. If you haven't seen Keith's book, 'Medieval Hand to Hand Combat" you should get one. He has distilled a lot of information from various sources into a logical and methodical approach that even knuckleheads like me can understand. Check out Keith's site at: http://keith.martialartsman.net/medieval/

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

Actually Jay, by all accounts, Fiore's system actually contains quite a bit of advice on striking but this is contained in the text of the Getty and not elsewhere AFAIK. I wish Bob Charron would hurry up and publish his book.

Matt, Yeah I have Keiths book, it is quite good.
By not working with the text however he has misinterpreted some of the wrestling techniques from the Codex W. On the whole though I have found his book to be a valuable resource and second your recommendation.

As far as safety goes, we drill mostly with boffers. I find them to be acceptable for dagger work as dagger worrk does not result in the same kind of binding as sword or even messer play does.

With these I find we can play a "capture and stop" game. After the weapon is neutralised we stop. Takedowns/breaks etc are drilled separately in our wrestling practice.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Mike Cartier]

We have just started to employ some stand up grappling drills. Just stuff to work the throwing and grappling skills.
When we spar with longsword its anything goes so we are liable to end up on the ground. We throw freely and upon the consent of both fighters will fight to the submission or weapon finish on the ground.
We are going to start adding daggers as part of our sparring equipment so we can switch to the smaller weapon upon close contact if desired.
We are doing a throw back to Pankration all powers fighting for our unarmed aspect as it is the only western unarmed fighting art that really comprehensivley covers all ranges (at least that is our impression from our limited exposure to it).
Some of the german and Italian stuff is a wee bit awkward or not as practical as we might like.
We are currently referencing existing pankration reconstructionists to develop a general curriculum.
In general it involved muay thai style elbow, feet , fist and Knee strikes with high percentage type wrestling moves with general ground fighting principles.

Mike
ARMA-SFL

[Jay Vail]

Actually Jay, by all accounts, Fiore's system actually contains quite a bit of advice on striking but this is contained in the text of the Getty and not elsewhere AFAIK. I wish Bob Charron would hurry up and publish his book.

Yeh, Stuart, I wish Bob would hurry up, too.

As for blows, I am using a Fiore translation which is published on the web and I haven't seen much in the dagger/kampfringen section of that version that I'd interpret as a strike, except for what may be a side kick to the knee. Perhaps I am missing something. It would not surprise me at all to find strikes in his method, particularly since the Codex Wallerstein has quite a few. Others should weigh in on this question, so we can be as well informed as possible.

[Jared L. Cass]

Although I haven't much experience with the various historical manuals (I really need to get a copy of the Codex), the few I have seen/own don't show much striking at all. But then again, I'm from the school of "punches and other strikes are just too obvious as techniques." I therefor believe that the masters simply didn't show many of them for that simple fact.

For a smaller guy, to try and throw an opponent without first "unbalancing" them in some way (i.e.: punching them in the face, chest, kicking to the knee, using a hip check, ect) , throws just don't work. To simply go up and try to throw a larger opponent is basically impossable.

As far as training grappling/dagger goes...the training I regularily participate in also uses more of a boffer style dagger for our full speed sparring. We vary the force/intensity of throws, punches, kicks depending on the level of profincienty of our training partner. The more experienced guys "go all out" and for our less experienced guys we usually take it slower and gentler Once they gain some experience, then the fun begins!

The same goes for any of our unarmed/armed training. Hope that sheds some light on what others are up to.

-Jared-

[Stuart McDermid]

HI Jay,

You aren't missing anything mate, it is just that the different versions of Fiore have varying amounts of useful text. The Getty is purported to have quite a bit on striking.....Paging Matt Easton....
Cheers,
Stu.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jared.

Yeah you need to get the Codex, it rocks.

I wholeheartedly agree that wrestling without softening strikes is not going to work. As such I drill striking right on in there with the wrestling. The striking in the Codex doesn't seem to be worlds apart from Fairbairn and Sykes as the blows are delivered with full committment on a pass. What I find to be interesting is the basic approach. Instead of trying to be non telegraphic, it would seem that in CW the idea is to come into distance behind a strong telegraphed strike that your opponent must deal with. As your opponent must deal with this blow, he can then be dealt with in second intention. This is of course how swordplay works.....
Cheers,
Stu.

[Guest]

IRT striking, I believe Fiore does say to "strike the places of pain" or words to that effect, whenever you can. He recommends striking the eyes and nose for example, and mentions the area behind the ear near the point of the jaw. A hard strike or enough pressure applied to this spot will put out your lights. I think the strikes are often incorporated in conjuction with a throw or other such grappling technique or counter and aren't always obvious from the illustrations. Like everyone else, I'm greatly anticipating a full translation of the Getty version of the Manuscript.

[Jake_Norwood]

I just received Keith Meyer's excellent Medieval Hand to Hand Combat book. Good job, Keith! It immediately opened my mind to wide possibilities of unarmed training with our whole group.

Just thought I'd add...

Jake

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi everybody. It seems that alot of the dagger grappling (or any sort of grappling) concerns for a good number of members is this: "It is dangerous doing this full speed because of the risk to the daggerman's joints."

While this is true (the historical techniques are designed to cause this sort of damage) I believe that what it really comes down to in practice, is knowing what ammount of flexibility ones partner has. And the only way to become comfortable and find these things out is, like any other endevor, to practice, practice, practice, the techniques (and having the techniques done on you).

Once a mutual trust and understanding of what our practice partners can physically handle is developed...the rest is simple submission training. One person is responsible for applying safe yet real pressure to the point of pain, and the other is responsible for "saying uncle." It's when either party doesn't follow through with their side of the bargain that injuries occure. The chance of injuries is also greater when working with an unfamilier partner.

Just like our cuts and thrusts can be done with a combination of intent and control, so can and should, IMO, our kamfringen training be practiced.

I realize that I'm sort of rambling here, but this past weekend in VA Beach got me thinking about this. I had one guy (sorry I forgot your name, if you're reading this) in the key lock...then alot deeper for what would have been a throw had I not stopped the movement. As we dissengaged, I noticed him rolling, massaging, ect, his shoulder.

Anyway, long post short, for those groups working on grappling, or considering adding it into their training... keep it safe, keep flexibile, but keep it real.

I'll probably get crucified for saying this, but many EMA styles (hard), along with BJJ and submission wreastling, have effectivly and consistintly showen that training on this level is indeed possible and safe. The kicker though, is that both opponents must be practiced in the perscribed techniques, be in good condition, and have a level of respect/trust in one another.

Whew! What a disjointed ramble! Time to go to bed (I've been up since 4:30am...hope this post makes sense and comes across right).

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin