using other forms of Unarmed.

[Margaret Lo]

Since a lot of members are here, I thought I'd say hello. I'm in Princeton, NJ, a real estate attorney by trade. My background: shotokan karate 19 years, goju ryu karate 3 months, hontai yoshin ryu (classical staff, jujutsu, sword) 1.5 years.

Addiction to all forms of martial arts 45 years.

[Jay Vail]

Although BJJ type ground methods are the fashion today, using them in WMA with the sword is probably not authentic or faithful to the methods of the masters. The manuals show few if any ground based techniques and most of those support the use of the dagger to finish the opponent on the ground. Talhoffer (1467) shows a couple of pinnings which then rely upon the dagger. The Gladiatoria shows seven pinning techniques for use with the dagger.

Von Danzig has this to say about wrestling and swordplay:

Now you should know that, for the most part, all fight in single combat in harness comes in the end to dagger fighting and to wrestling. Therefore note, when you close with an opponent, then attend to nothing else but the wrestling and let your dagger stay in its scabbard, because you cannot hurt him through the harness as long as he is standing before you and hinders your hand. When you secure him with the wrestling or have thrown him and have overcome him, then work with the dagger to the openings that you will find explained hereafter, and that have already been explained.

Paulus Kal, "In Service of the Duke," Tobler trans. (Chivalry Bookshelf 2007), p. 212.

So while BJJ style grappling is fun and may be profitable for the unarmed man, the dynamic changes dramatically when a dagger comes into play. And since every man of the age carried a dagger, it seems fairly clear to me that ground wrestling, to the extent there was any, was brief and ended when the dagger was drawn.

Try this yourself. Arm yourselves with daggers and then try ground grappling and see how long that lasts before somebody gets "stabbed."

I've done this, and I timed it. .078 seconds. Just kidding (though it's not much of an exaggeration).

When I've had beginner students below me in my EMA school who think that BJJ is the end-all be-all, and who want to take me down and "submit " me in sparring, I have been known to strap a rubber knife in a cardboard sheath to my leg with strapping tape, and then let them do it. The result was not only comedic for my watching instructor, but enlightening for my student, who had lost a kidney and a chunk of his intestines before he even knew what was happening.

And before that, I'd never really fought much on the ground with a knife. No skill is required really to inflict serious, serious damage in that situation.

Jason

Here is one way to handle wrestling at the sword. In the video there are two examples of throws am schwert. Notice that the thrower manages the throwee so that he ends up on top in the top mount. From here it is easy to pull a dagger, if you have one, to finish the guy. All throws should be executed with the idea in mind of how they are going to finish. You don't throw someone for the sake of throwing him, but to put him in a position where he is more vulnerable than when he was on his feet. If you are not careful with your throw, you can end up on the bottom, which is not a good place to be.

http://arma-sfl.com/workshop/fall2006/jaysam.asf

[Mike Cartier]

I agree with Jay, but thats also a great reason to train ground fighting.
Anythime you try to throw someone or defend from being thrown you can both end up on the ground, BJJ just gives you some options on the ground when you are in a bad position.

I have pulled of great throws before but ended up underneath as we hit the ground, in which case i was much better off to remain standing but thats where the BJJ training kicks in and you should then be using it to get to a more favorable or neutral position.

I like throws but i find that as a small guy when i open up my base by trying to throw someone i can get thrown myself alot easier so i tend to prefer less dramatic type takedowns.

[Jay Vail]

I agree with Jay, but thats also a great reason to train ground fighting.
Anythime you try to throw someone or defend from being thrown you can both end up on the ground, BJJ just gives you some options on the ground when you are in a bad position.

I have pulled of great throws before but ended up underneath as we hit the ground, in which case i was much better off to remain standing but thats where the BJJ training kicks in and you should then be using it to get to a more favorable or neutral position.

I like throws but i find that as a small guy when i open up my base by trying to throw someone i can get thrown myself alot easier so i tend to prefer less dramatic type takedowns.

Yeah, Mike is right on every point. Ground skills are good to have. I've always been rather weak in that department myself. I did not mean to argue above that ground skills were unnecessary, but rather to explain why, IMO, we don't see much emphasis on them in the manuals. The addition of the weapon changes the dynamic considerable. But this does not rule out the need to practice ground skills if you can find a competent teacher.

Like Mike, I've pulled off great throws but ended up on the bottom. Sometimes this happens because you aren't planning ahead, sometimes just because of circumstances, such as the natural momentum imparted by the fight. When you find yourself on the bottom, at least you have to know how to escape.

It is hard to wrestle a larger man. Despite what they say in judo, size and strength do make a difference. So it is harder for a small man to throw a larger one, though it is not impossible. Typically as the smaller man you need to be more skillful. Ott advises the smaller, weaker man to fight in the after and attend to the knees.

I take this rather cryptic advice to mean that you should not be aggressive but should counter the bigger man's move or move with him and wait for an opening. One will often present itself. Also, everyone makes mistakes from time to time that a skilled wrestler can take advantage of. Moreover, when a wrestler attacks, he naturally creates a weakness that can be exploited, with skill. No one is strong everywhere.

By attending to the knees, I take to mean, like the authors of the Ott video, that a big man's weakest point is his knees and techniques directed to them are more likely to result in a takedown than some other type of throw.

[Jason Taylor]

Hey gent's

Last night at practice Myself and one of our guy's(Jaron Bernstein) were doing our sword thing as we usualy do and he went to take me down with a body lock and I stuffed it so it didn't happen and the first thing he did as usualwas drop his sword and try again and so I called a halt because i still had my sword.

Now the reason I tell this story, I have told our guy's on numerous occasion's to not be so hasty dropping there weapon, becasue at the point he dropped his weapon I wanted to take him down, I stopped the bout and then demonstrated how difficult it would be to even defend himself with a weapon when I was sitting on his chest.

I had him lay on his back and gave him his sword, I then mounted him ( I had no weapon) I then told him to defend himself he tried valiantly until I pinned his arm and hit him in the face (he was wearing a Brian Hunt helmet) he then dropped the sword and tried to free his hand's to keep me from hitting him, if he had a dagger in a sheath I bet me hitting him repeatedly would stop him from accessing it and if I am choking, hitting, and twisting an arm I do not see him accessing a knife I see him trying to stop me from choking, hitting, and twisting his arm.

We need to keep in mind that the guy in a dominant position is in just that a Dominant position and if he can strike, choke and break bone's we need to deal with all that before we can access any weapon, dealing with the attack can be anything up to and including escaping to regain distance ie escape and stand up, gaining the dominant position or what ever.

Introducing a weapon does change the dynamic, when the weapon is in a pocket, snapped into a sheath or whatever, you need to be in a dominant position in order to access it, and if your not you need to get there before deploying a weapon or it is may just be stripped from you and used on you.

Just my opinion.

Jeff

I'm not sure that the situations are parallel. A sword (I'm assuming you meant a longsword) is a totally inadequate weapon for groundfighting. It's too long, it relies at least to some degree on leverage (which you won't have), its very length makes it vulnerable to grabbing and control by the opponent--lots of problems there.

I don't really think that one must be in the dominant position to access a knife, because I have done it, in sparring, as I mentioned above. Obviously, if he has me mounted, then a knife on my ankle is kind of hard to reach. But a sheathed dagger, fixed-blade, of the sort we practice with in ARMA, sheathed at the waist, would be a relatively easy draw. Not that it's a slam dunk--just that it's a very serious possibility, regardless of position.

In the situation I described, I slipped my leg into a guard-like position before he could take the mount, which I did because I knew I wanted access to my knife. But the guard is neutral, not dominant. And yes, I took a glancing shot or two from his right hand (my left elbow was covering) but once I got to my weapon, it was over. The ground and pound issue is certainly serious, but most people can take a few shots in the midst of an adrenaline rush--take a look at some of the streetfights you can find even on YouTube. Sometimes people get pounded on quite a bit and keep fighting, so I would posit that in my case (I'm reasonably big, not in awful shape, and at least partially inured to full-contact strikes) I would last long enough to get my weapon into play.

He could have tried to choke me, as well, but again, I'm going to make myself a hard target, pull him in closer with my left hand, and do whatever I can to get a few seconds (it really should only take about one, anyway) to draw my knife.

Of course, the unpredictability of fighting in general makes all of this just a theory. But I think that "dominant" position isn't as clean-cut if one opponent has a knife he can get to.

From the posts I've seen on here, though, it seems like there isn't a great deal of emphasis on ground-grappling with a dagger in the manuals. It's probably something you'd want to avoid, since being that close to each other with two knives in play is probably going to be pretty internecine.

Just my thoughts. Of course, when I tried my experience, I was trying to teach my student why we don't go straight to the ground in self-defense. It was less directly oriented toward RMA/WMA, but I think that it's still somewhat applicable.

Jason

[david welch]

In fight weapons access is probably them most important, and least practiced, weapons skill to have.

In any type of self defense, the attacks are mostly ambushes and you will not have your weapon at the ready but will be trying to draw it while under attack. It's hard to do even when you have practiced it a lot, pulling a knife or a gun for the first time while somebody is punching you in the head is an eye opener.

[Jake_Norwood]

Absolutely!

I used to spar with a dagger in my belt. I got killed with it all the time by opponents who closed and then drew it before I even thought of it.

Tim Sheetz, on the other hand, practiced drawing his dagger religiously...and I know he killed me with it many times, actually, at the last IG.

Jake

[Jason Taylor]

In fight weapons access is probably them most important, and least practiced, weapons skill to have.

In any type of self defense, the attacks are mostly ambushes and you will not have your weapon at the ready but will be trying to draw it while under attack. It's hard to do even when you have practiced it a lot, pulling a knife or a gun for the first time while somebody is punching you in the head is an eye opener.

Agreed.

It's a skill I've been trying to work in more to my training, but since my class is at a college campus, I have to be careful not to tick people off--if they see me as training a bunch of students to Cuisinart each other....

Jason

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jason,

Here is a way you can work it into your regular training.

When conducting normal drills or sparring, add a knife to your belt/boot, etc.... and then just focus on your main weapon. A designated third person watches and shouts loudly without warning "KNIFE!!!"

Upon hearing this, the two folks drilling/sparring drop the long weapons and put the knives into action.

You can even make it a race where the slower individual does pushups... this encourages speed (the development of efficient motion, not rushing for your knife). Negative reinforcement does work.

You can also just have them continue to spar once they draw their knives.

Other options: for grappling is to just do a bout of wrestling with a small knife waster in your pocket (or for the more modern feel, a totally rebated tactical folder). During the wrestling, try to put it into action.... not so easy (especially with the folder!). SAFETY NOTE::::: If you decide to keep sparring with the knife waster/rebated folder, you must take extra care you don't stick each other in the eyes. No one want to really wrstling with bulky headgear, so you must weigh the risks and if you go without, I recommend a half speed grappling once the knife is out - so you both can work techniques without full force and speed. Just my safety opinion.

This is all good fun, but it helps condition yourself to put weapons into action under duress... and let me tell you, when Jake Norwood has just bypassed your spear point and is closing fast for the grapple it puts you under a LOT of duress! LOL!

Peace,

Tim Sheetz

In fight weapons access is probably them most important, and least practiced, weapons skill to have.

In any type of self defense, the attacks are mostly ambushes and you will not have your weapon at the ready but will be trying to draw it while under attack. It's hard to do even when you have practiced it a lot, pulling a knife or a gun for the first time while somebody is punching you in the head is an eye opener.

Agreed.

It's a skill I've been trying to work in more to my training, but since my class is at a college campus, I have to be careful not to tick people off--if they see me as training a bunch of students to Cuisinart each other....

Jason

[philippewillaume]

Hello gents
Well my understanding of Ringen (according to ringeck) is that before you access your weapon, put you tongue in his hear or your finger somewhere else, is that you need to pin him.
Ie you do not access your or his weapon until is safe to do so, I.e. when he can not prevent you to do so.
My understanding of medieval lichty/ott wrestling is all about by passing weapons. So that would imply that you prevent him to draw his.
Otherwise by passing the drawing of our weapon to let him access his defeats the purpose of the act.


Ringen am swert in Ringeck is slightly different as at no point we are told to relinquish our weapon and we are always standing. They are all high velocity throws usually with koshi (hips throw).
So we usually are able to stab/strike him whilst he is on the ground (and there is not that much he can do about it)

ps aikido is very good a weapons retention/weapons drawing

[Jason Taylor]

Tim,
Thanks for the suggestions. Not a bad set of ideas there. I'm toying witht he idea of sparring (in my self-defense/EMA classes) with people and always carrying a weapon in my pocket (small knife waster/folder/small gun/etc.) as a means of making the possibility of weapons suddenly appearing always present. Ideally, I'd like to let other people do the same to me, and then have both of us have the option, for the best variety.

As for my WMA practice, it might actually be easier, since the concealment of the secondary weapon is pretty much a non-issue, since everyone pretty much had one, anyway. Probably even the non-combatants. But definitely, some kind of efficient drawing training is worthwhile. My main difficulty is using a sheath with a lot of the (often pretty fat) dagger wasters out there. Perhaps rubber or plastic might work better.

Jason