Double Leg Takedown

[philippewillaume]

Hello Matt

To cut this short grammatically you cannot really use fur with the meaning that you have for “for”.
The English sentence indicate that you are going for is chest (brüst is really the pectorals or the breasts). But the idea of destination as target is covered buy “stossen <someone>, mitt<something> an <somewhere on that someone>”
The medieval fur has more the idea of in the direction of (and that is not that different of in +accusative in modern german) /in front of.

I really would expect “an die brust” if we were to hit him in chest.

That being said it take “oder auf den pauch” or onto the belly. And that intiself can support the head on the side.

However I really believe that if there are not precise, we do not need to add precision. I agree with you that we need to be careful with modern technique.
But I am pretty sure that it would not take more than 10minutes for Lyn to adapt a DLT that would lead to BJJ/MMA ground work (mount, side mont and so on) to something that can lead to one of the 3 pins (especially the 3rd one with the legs)

For exemple the 3rd ringen is either ikkio or gonkio and it can be the irimi wasa (inside/in front technique) or ura wasa (outside/behind technique). It really depends on how he hold you and if he pushes or pull or remain static but the principle remains the same.
I think ringeck means all of those possibilities not one in particular. So I think the same applies to the BLT in the manual.
Sometime is will pertinent to get you head near the stomach someting it will be more pertinent just to lift up.
That does not really change the principle behind the movement.

phil

[LynGrey]

But I am pretty sure that it would not take more than 10minutes for Lyn to adapt a DLT that would lead to BJJ/MMA ground work (mount, side mont and so on) to something that can lead to one of the 3 pins (especially the 3rd one with the legs)

well in the simplist form.. all forms of ground work rely on 3 things.. pin the hips flat , pin the shoulders flat, superior postitioning. These things have been the basis off all ground work training i have been invovled with.. some people don't mention why something works, but i usally make the correlation quickly.

With just positioning drills you can be a very dominate ground fighter.. a la the ground and pounder =p instead its more of a ground and shiv=p

[philippewillaume]

Sorry lyn I was not clear.

The pins/locks (unterhalten= holding under) in ringeck are of the format opponent on the floor, you standing and using one arm to pin or you are kneeling on part of him (his elbow or his gonads.) and usually trying to get one hand free so that we can stab him in peace. I think it is slightly relatively to ground work as it is understood in BJJ and MMA, so I was trying to say is that it would take you just the time to figure out what bit to keep hold of and adapt the way you do DLT now so that getting hold of the said bit is optimized.

[LynGrey]

Sorry lyn I was not clear.

The pins/locks (unterhalten= holding under) in ringeck are of the format opponent on the floor, you standing and using one arm to pin or you are kneeling on part of him (his elbow or his gonads.) and usually trying to get one hand free so that we can stab him in peace. I think it is slightly relatively to ground work as it is understood in BJJ and MMA, so I was trying to say is that it would take you just the time to figure out what bit to keep hold of and adapt the way you do DLT now so that getting hold of the said bit is optimized.

and i was agreeing... i mean... knee to belly would work pretty sweet in this case also from what it seems.

[JeffGentry]

But I am pretty sure that it would not take more than 10minutes for Lyn to adapt a DLT that would lead to BJJ/MMA ground work (mount, side mont and so on) to something that can lead to one of the 3 pins (especially the 3rd one with the legs)

well in the simplist form.. all forms of ground work rely on 3 things.. pin the hips flat , pin the shoulders flat, superior postitioning. These things have been the basis off all ground work training i have been invovled with.. some people don't mention why something works, but i usally make the correlation quickly.

With just positioning drills you can be a very dominate ground fighter.. a la the ground and pounder =p instead its more of a ground and shiv=p

More often than not if you do the take down regardless of what kind ie DLT, hip toss whatever you are in a better position, like Lyn said also the skill's of positioning will allow you to return to your feet or access a weapon more quickly than your opponent.

Standing over an opponent is not alway's good either because you have no control over him, I have fallen in sparring and had folk's run themselve's onto my wasterd while i tried to get up, they thought it was an easy victory because i went down and i just stuck out my weapon as they ran in, I have also let someone hold my waster for me while i took them down then took mw waster back and ended the fight because i knew we were going down and they didn't expect it so were surprised by me letting my wasater go and throwing them and rolling them over so i could get my waster back and stand up while they sat on the floor shocked.

Many thing's are situational, I do think we can learn alot from folkstyle/freestyle wrestling, BJJ, JJ, they are all wrestling after all.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello
Sorry Lyn, this is the beauty to be separated by a common language.

Jeff,
Not to re-start a mma vs ringen thread but I do agree with you, in fact what ever the art you are doing, it something that you should do.
You do not have to take any other arts per se, but seeing what they are doing and trying to understand how and why they do it, will always teach you about what you are doing.

I think you are spot on with situation. In fact fighting is all about creating situation.
I mean yes I can defend against shooting a DLT, using aikido/daito-ruy/ringen (they all uses the same solutions).
It does not mean that I will automatically be able to do so against Lyn (or any experience shooter), they will only shoot when it is safe for them to so. The idea for each fighter is to create or exploit a situation. It is not so much of that technique is better than this one but more this technique is more appropriate than this one.
Like sword, spear, knife fighting really

phil

[Jay Vail]

But I am pretty sure that it would not take more than 10minutes for Lyn to adapt a DLT that would lead to BJJ/MMA ground work (mount, side mont and so on) to something that can lead to one of the 3 pins (especially the 3rd one with the legs)

well in the simplist form.. all forms of ground work rely on 3 things.. pin the hips flat , pin the shoulders flat, superior postitioning. These things have been the basis off all ground work training i have been invovled with.. some people don't mention why something works, but i usally make the correlation quickly.

With just positioning drills you can be a very dominate ground fighter.. a la the ground and pounder =p instead its more of a ground and shiv=p

When you throw someone, you must have the ground game in mind just as in swordplay you shouldn’t throw the first blow without knowing what the second will be.

It’s important to remember that you don’t throw for throwing’s sake, but to place the opponent in a position where he is less able to defend himself than on his feet. Many people think that throwing is about dropping a guy on his head and so ending the fight. However, most throws and takedowns do not result in landings on the head. This means that you must have in mind a general plan of how you are going to handle him on the ground and position him and yourself in the landing so that you can carry out your plan. I learned this early on in judo play when I’d throw the guy, but the action would continue on the ground. I’d get killed because I didn’t have a ground plan in mind when I executed the throw. The principle is the same on the street, and in fact is even more important because of the stakes.

In practical terms, this requires two things. First, you must control a part of his body as he falls. That means you hold onto either an arm or a leg. If he gets away from you in the fall, then he is more able to defend himself in the ground game than if you have some control. That is why, as Brian says, people spitted themselves on his sword after he tripped.

Second, you must end up on top. If you don’t, then he ends up on top, and that’s not a good thing. Believe it or not, it is possible to end up on the bottom if you are not in control of the fall and prepared for the possibility that YOU may end up on the bottom. Thinking back, I can recall only one instance on the street where the guy on the bottom achieved a reversal to win the fight. The guy on top wins virtually every time. People were grounding and pounding back then long before there was MMA.

[JeffGentry]

Jay

what you say is very true if the guy being thrown has been thrown before it is quit possible for him to hold onto youand roll through the throw and end up on top of you,not good i also have heard a numbe rof people say that about throwing throwing someone on there head to end the fight and I know it could happen i doubt it will happen, thorwing, DLT, SLT, are just piece's of the whole puzzle.

I have a couple of CACC video's titled "Dead drop's" which have a number of way to drop your opponent and go right into submission's, all of which require you to retain control of an arm, leg, the head, what ever, but even if you do not retain that control you need to be aware of what is going on so you can still capitalize on the throw or take down.


Jeff

[Matt Bryant]

Phillip W: Thanks for pointing out my translation error.

[philippewillaume]

Phillip W: Thanks for pointing out my translation error.

Hello Matt
Thanks but I would not call it a translation mistake/error.
I am relatively confident of the grammatical structure of stossen in the Ringeck) but bear in mind that we are talking about a language that is full of local variations. (So I may be wrong or there may be a level of subtlety that I missed).
As well, it is quite hard to translate medieval German into proper modern English (it is easier in pigeon-English.) because English is usually less precise and can be understood in different fashion contextually.
“For” can be used with the sense of “in the direction of”, as In he was reaching for his gun be he got shot before.
However we do not know if he was actually able to palm the gun or if he just moved toward the gun) but medieval German can tell us with a preposition (and may be with a preposition and the declination)

And you can have a similar thing in medieval German
If we take
puck dich resch vor im nyder und stoss in mit dem kopf foren in dye prust oder auf den pauch..."

In ringeck it is usually mitt proposition A oder proposition B, so I would say it means
Stoss him with the head toward the chest or stoss him onto the stomack.

But is possible that it means stoss him with the head towards the chest or stoss him with the head onto the stomach. (it depends how mitt … oder… is used before in codex walenstein)

i just think that in the context the fist meaning is more likely...
Phil

[Steven Ott]

The bull double, or fat man double has different names and it does work. Frank shamrock is an advicate of it. Just remeber to shrug your shoulders and impact with the top of your forehead. Step your leg between and through your opponets legs and lift the legs at the knees up and toward you. I use this technique on occasion in sub-grappling

[Stewart Sackett]

I was going to start a new thread about the double leg but then I remembered this old one.

I'm trying to drill shoot & sprawl more in my own grappling training (both in ARMA & otherwise). I'm also trying to limit my ARMA grappling to mostly historical techniques.

I see the single leg, or at least the defense against the single leg, in several places in the manuals but so far have seen only the bull double & not the double with the head on the outside.

Has anyone found a Renaissance source for the head 0utside double or the high crotch? If not, do people believe that they are fundamental enough to be justifiably used in Ringen training or should I try to limit myself to the bull double while working with ARMA?

[Jaron Bernstein]

I was going to start a new thread about the double leg but then I remembered this old one.

I'm trying to drill shoot & sprawl more in my own grappling training (both in ARMA & otherwise). I'm also trying to limit my ARMA grappling to mostly historical techniques.

I see the single leg, or at least the defense against the single leg, in several places in the manuals but so far have seen only the bull double & not the double with the head on the outside.

Has anyone found a Renaissance source for the head 0utside double or the high crotch? If not, do people believe that they are fundamental enough to be justifiably used in Ringen training or should I try to limit myself to the bull double while working with ARMA?

Meyer (from the longsword chapter of course!) has it. Look at the top left figures in longsword woodcut D. The corresponding text is 1.62v.3 (pg. 108). I can quote it here if you like, but it essentially describes the classic double leg takedown. What is a high outside double or high crotch?

[Stewart Sackett]

Thank you very much!

As for the high crotch, I'll try to expalin: a high crotch is a takedown where you enter as you would for a head outside double but grab your opponents leg with your inside arm. your arm drives down the leg with your shoulder fitting into their groin. Then you turn the corner & drive, lifting the leg as you do so. often from their you transition to a standard double grip.

I know a wrestler who always shows the double leg off the high crotch because he feels it does a better job of teaching people to cut an angle & not just use brute force.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

Would it be possible for anyone to post a short demonstration video for these different forms of take downs to give us novices a clear image of what you are trying to explain?