Grappling clothes

[Jake_Norwood]

Something stuck out to me in the clothing thread going in the Open Research forum. John said (very correctly) that period clothing is easier to grap onto when grappling. I found that in Ju-jitsu practice the same was true--if your partner was not wearing a full Gi then it was much more difficult to grab onto him and to execute many moves.

However, in my limited grappling experience, I haven't seen any references to grabbing the clothing in the manuals. If they exist (I assume they do), then they appear to be rare.

Why is that? Is it just bad form to assume that your opponent's clothing will be there for you to grab, so train as if it isn't, or is it because clothing tears and doesn't offer the secure grip that the wrist or headlock does? Or is it because those who got into these fights often intentionally wore more form-fitting clothing (as seems the case in most 15th and 16th century manuals off the top of my head)?

Thoughts? Ideas?

[Guest]

Interesting and valid question. I have wondered about this myself. When we train we are typically in T shirts and warm-up pants, so grabbing the clothing doesn't work too well. But you are right in saying that few of the manuals show the opponent's clothing being used to advantage. They wore pretty stout stuff in those days, so I'm not sure why that is. True, it was some-what "form-fitting", but that shouldn't prevent a sleeve or lapel from being grabbed. I think there are a few examples showing the clothing being grabbed, but I would have to go back and look for them. I think it did happen, but it just wasn't a focus as it is in modern Judo.

Keith

[Jay Vail]

Keith, it is indeed a question why the medieval manuals don’t show fighters grasping the clothes of opponents. I have a couple of speculations why this might be so. First, you can't grasp an armored man’s clothes. You have to learn to manipulate him without that aid. Second, in a true fight, things happen so fast that you usually don’t have time to grasp the guy’s clothing. I can think of only a couple of times in true fights when I tossed a guy with the help of a clothing grab. Mostly the throw involved grabbing the arm (or arms) or wrapping my own arm around him.

[Guest]

IIRC, Fiore, in his wrestling plays, shows a couple of techniques in which you grab the opponent's doublet to assist in throwing them off balance. He also shows a counter to someone grabbing you by the front of your doublet while threatening with a dagger in the other hand. In the latter case Fiore says something to the effect of thanking the other fellow for doing this as he is now able to control the guy doing the grabbing as both are now connected. Hopefully Matt Easton or someone with a little more scholarly apttitude will help me out here, but You get the idea ;^)

I think in a real fight, you're going to do whatever works. If you ever played defense in football for example, many tackles are made by grabbing jerseys (hence the invention of the "tear-away" jersey) but I'm sure your coach never taught you to tackle that way, it just happens sometimes.

[Gene Tausk]

I believe there is a modern comparison to wrestling styles which use the opponent's clothes to grapple with and those that do not.

Judo players train and use the opponent's gi to throw and use against the opponent for chokeholds. Sambo practitioners do this as well, with the added advantage that the belt on sambo jackets (kurtka) fits in through loops, thus the belt can be used as well. Also, various styles of jujutsu use the opponent's jacket as well. I don't know if anyone remembers the early UFC fights were strikers were hopelessly naive about grapplers and the grapplers would use their uniforms as a "3rd arm" to entangle the limbs of the opponent. Now, many mixed martial arts competitions do not allow gi uniforms for this reason.

The Chinese art of Shuai-Chao, by comparison, teaches practitioners to use the limbs of the opponent, not the jacket (although SC practitioners wear a heavy jacket). The reason given is that SC is a battlefield combat art, where it was not always practical to try and grap the opponent's clothing, which may rip off!

I believe then that most Midieval manuals do not show the antagonists grabbing the clothes b/c clothes could be torn off, thus negating the effect. Also, I find it interesting that some manuals show the wrestlers performing their art in what appear to be very expensive clothes - sort of like grapplers today going at it in Armani suits. I think this was more for aesthetic effect, to demonstrate that grappling was a skill of the upper classes, as well as the peasents.


------->>>>>>>>>gene

[Guest]

Hi Guys,

Take a look at the 2 gentlemen in this photo. They are in the bottom right corner. The gentlemen in the yellow looks as if he is pulling his opponent down by grabbing his cloths or armor, striking in Zornhau with a Messer or Falchion. I'm sorry I couldn't find a better, larger picture for closer look. Thoughts?

All the Best,

Todd

Below is some information on the photo.

Crusaders and Turks at the Battle of Nicopol (1396).
(BNF, FR 2646)
Jean Froissart, Chronicles
fol. 222
Flandres, Bruges 15th Century.
(190 x 200 mm)

[Guest]

Good Day, good gentlemen
I do a lot of t-shirt grappling. I'm a apprentice instructor under Mr. Roy Harris and he is doing mostly no-gi grappling these days. Moving on to the point of this post: We've found that you have to change how you use your hands and arms when there is no cloth to grab. Your normal grip of fingers and thumb become less useful and we train using a grip best described as monkey paw. fingers and thumb same side with a hooking of the wrist. This works really well, just takes time to get use to. We have also found that you have to follow what the early gracie teachings said: use your whole body against the part of his body that you're attacking.

[Tony_Indurante]

He also looks to be stepping back on his left foot to add power to both his cut and pull.

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi guys,

How about the pair in the upper-right (between the two cannon)? It looks as though the armored "knight" is grabbing his turkish friend to keep him from going anywhere. Either that or he's just struck/pushed his opponent. What do you think?

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Jared L. Cass]

Keith,

I Just recieved "Medieval Hand-to-Hand Combat" in the mail yesterday! GREAT work!! It's nice to have a manual that collects so many techniques into one, easy to referance, place! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, back on subject...on page 8, in the illistration in the lower lefthand corner (Albrecht Durer, 1500) of the above mentioned manual (Keith's)...is a very clear and obvious (it was right under our noses all of the time!) illistration of a lapel grab. For those of you who have Kieths book, you'll notice that the grappler on the right, is grasping his opponents lapel with his right hand. It's even clear to see where the fingers have been slipped between skin and shirt. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> Visual proof at last!

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Guest]

What about using the oppenents hair? While reading this thread a fight I had in High School (last year lol) comes to mind. The main combative portion of this fight took place after my "opponent" slapped me and I had chased him down. The very first thing I did was grab the hair on his head and pulling him down (escentially bringing him closer to my height, his face would be face down and would be in no possesion to strike at me effectively) My other hand went to his T-shirt as I placed a leg behind his. An easy take down, which put his head between my knees (which I use to pin his head in place [by hugging my knees around his head]) From this position he tried kicking up with both legs. The legs lacking leverage were easily place to the side and just as easily pinned by one hand. The finish product was my opponent pinned in a semi fettle position with just my knees and one hand, with his entire side (kiddneys, ribs, take your pick) and my strong right hand free to do what I want.
Though without the hair and cloths grab could i have gotten to this advantagious position? Maunals are really just guides right? Shouldn't we be training all moves the carry the same "spirit" as the manuals. Sort of like following the "Spirit of the law". Sorry if that doesn't make sense, best way i can figure to phrase it.

Michael Pierce
Provo ARMA (n/m)

[Jared L. Cass]

It seems that now that I'm consciously looking for it, the lapel/clothing grabs are starting to pop up all over the place in the various manuals <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Again from Keiths book: pages 24, 25, 26, and 27 have a preponderance of them! The various illistrations are from: Albrecht Durer, Fiori, and Codex Wallerstein. Great stuff!

As far as the hair pull/grab goes, there are quite a few of those as well: Hans Talhoffer, Codex Wallerstein, Albrecht Durer, ect. (page 12 and 61..probably others, of Kieths book). Yep, long hair is the best "free form" hand hold ever <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> Having long hair myself, it's constantly being grabbed/pulled in my MA class-the other guys love it! If I didnt like it so much, I'd probably get a buzz cut <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Jake_Norwood]

It does make you wonder why so many of the fighters in the manuals kept long or long-ish hair.

[Guest]

Also if you look to the left side you will see the knight whp appears to be in Ochs?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hello,

Greetings from ARMA Columbus. I have 10 years of Shuai-Chiao experience. It differs from Judo in several ways.

1. It more of a battlefield art. Towards that end it has no groundwork in the sense of ground grappling familiar to jujitsu and judo players. The theory for that, which seems to fit in with ARMA, is that being on the ground on the proverbial mosh pit isn't real healthy. That has some advantage when facing multiple opponents. OTOH, when facing only one opponent in a fight that goes to the ground, it does behoove you to be able to do ground rasslin.

2. Shuai-Chiao primarily deals with powerful throws and strikes, mixing the 2 together at times.

3. SC doesn't require a uniform jacket or clothing to grab (although a handle certainly helps if it is available). It operates on the natural "handles" of the body (ankle, knees, hips, wrists, neck, elbows, etc.) more so than clothing.

4. It has no weapons.

How does this integrates into WMA?

From what I have seen, it is most helpful in the throw/takedown department. After all, there are only so many ways to throw the human body and the same techniques often are developed parallel to each other in different parts of the world.

Just a few thoughts.