Combatives

[Brian Hunt]

Jake,

I assure you that my pants do not have an intelligence rating. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

That was just my big mouth spouting off. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brian.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi John,

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I agree with you on LE training. As a matter of fact I have seen some departments afraid to train their people effectivly for "liability reasons" God forbid that the should be taught something that works. The decision is usually made by some lawyer that has no clue about the reality of the officers. I'll get off my soap box now.
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(Climbs on soap box <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )That is the lay of the land, for better and/or worse. I don't know how much of it has to do with liability and how much with laziness. There ARE plenty of PC "safe" techniques that could be trained regularly, but you only see them once in a class and then you never work them again on duty (except when in actual street application which isn't exactly a perfect learning environment) unless you spend your own free time on them.
(climbs off soapbox)

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jake,


You wrote: "The stuff in Meyer and in Ringeck is the same at the root, which is plenty to start with. Meyer is a bit different in application, and much clearer in practice. Check out a translation of Meyer's lognsword at www.scheilhau.org.

As for Messer stuff, you'll find a lot on that same site that will get you going if interested. I really am planning on doing a web article as soon as I've got a digicam to use; I've been trying out my theory in sparring and so forth with a lot of success, so I think I'm getting ready to share more of it."

Well, it seems to work pretty good on a heavy bag. And it gives lots more options than what I have been taught.



Jay wrote: "The twitch is the zucken, yes. Basically striking alternate long edge-short edge to alternate sides of the body/head and going up or down every one or two strikes. See Meyer's section on "Striking to the Four Openings" to see what I mean."

Gotcha. Tried it out last week and it works nicely (at least against that opponent who hangs in a bag from a pole and doesn't move <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). I need to meet you at one of these gatherings and see what you have gleaned in person.


Jay wrote: "Clearly it is unreasonable to give anyone anything useful if they don't use it."

Maybe you could share that wisdom with the folks who do LE training. It isn't that the stuff isn't valid, but rather that there is minimal to no "on the clock" training to reinforce it. It is a bit like taking an ARMA training class for a week, learning a few basics and then being sent out to fight with swords. As opposed to training once a week for years, supplamented with study.

Jay wrote: " The attacks you were taught...I'm suprised that they needed "training" (in fact, they probably didn't). What I'm proposing will be easy for us HES guys, and quite different for the rest of the world, I would guess. I am trying to keep it down to a few simple and easy-to-remember fundamentals."

That is a good idea. The only other stick usage I have seen is Kali/Escrima/Silat type stuff, which while good in its own right, isn't something I want to study since I have enough on my plate with the longsword.


Jay wrote: "As for liability...I hate that entire issue. It's just wrong."

Right or wrong, that is the world we live in. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jay wrote: " The "system" that I'm modifiying for ASP use is clearly one that targets the head in a life-or-death situation, but many of the techniques could be easily modified to do less damage to the head (due to the type of strike used, which isn't a full-arm wrath-blow until the "finishing move") or which could easily be targeted at the arms/wrists. Avoiding any injury to the other guy will be possible from the defensive manuevers planned (as they result in throws and locks that can become submission moves)."

The main thing is that if you are going to teach this as a modern street applicable thing is to also teach what is known as the force continuum in which you can escalate and de-escalate force as circumstances dictate. That seems different from what I have seen of the longswords material where there were apparently less liablity laws in Ringnecks day. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />


Jay wrote: "Finally, in all honesty, this is my first foray into modern self-defense and the like, so it's more of an experiment initially than anything else."

IMO at least some of the WMA stuff transfers over into the area, even if the polearms and such don't

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Jaron.

Today my father--probably the hoss-est man I have ever met, and though I'm 6 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier I've never beaten him wrestling--suited up with helmets (he wore a baseball catcher's helmet which was excellent) and elbow pads, forearm pads, and lacross gloves to try some stuff out at speed. We used padded pvc-core ASP substitutes which weigh only a fraction less and are the exact same length.

I had gone over my theories on application with him with the real ASP for about an hour a week previoius, and we had practiced at very slow speeds. Today we "went at it" with intent and ferocity. We decided that a "kill" was when one of us had been wailed on something fierce, usually meaning several head and/or joint shots, even though IRL even one might have disarmed or ended the fight. Since we were training, not competing, this worked out just fine.

I am thus far extremely happy with the modified messer techniques. The all worked almost exactly as planned, and even he was able to integrate several of them after only an hour's training a week earlier. The current "area of improvement" is really defending yourself against an ASP attack when you've got one yoursel: ASP duelling, as it were. I'm not too concerned about this, though, since I don't reckon it's a major possibility when compared to ASP vs. nothing, knife, or baseball-bat. I'll need to spend more time developing defensive techniques from messer and rondel work. The best defense so far seems to be a meisterhau (usually a krump) to the incoming hand. Even though this didn't disarm in our sparring (due to gloves and training tools), I'm confident that it would IRL. Nonetheless, I'll train as if it didn't. Never get cocky with violence...

I must get myself a digicam!

Jake
(heh, not Jay)

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Jake:

I am very interested in seeing this in NO. Please email me and let me know what I need to bring to work some with you on this. You have my email address from the e-list.

Thanx!


--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene

[JeffGentry]

well i agree that ground fighting is a risky business in a combat zone(area).When i was in the Marine Corps I was in a Heavy machine gun platoon we ran as forward scout's for the battallion and in the first Gulf war i went over with three knive's a Ka-bar, a 14 1/2" Bowie, and of course a combat folder. so as you can see i am not much for unarmed combat, if it come's to close quarter's i want as many back up weapon's as i can viably carry to end the fight as quickly as possible. You never know how close his buddies are. If all you can do is knock them down and grab your sword, knife, dagger, whatever do it instead of trying to choke them or bash there head in or whatever. if your standing with a weapon IMHO your in a better position to end the fight.