The "Americana" in Goliath Dagger

[Randall Pleasant]

Kirk and Andrew

That interpretation makes a lot of sense. I'll try it (on someone else <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ) at our next practice.

[Jay Vail]

Meyer says the same thing for this upper key lock, step deeply behind the enemy with your right leg. This also pulls him off balance so he cannot counter, as well as seating the lock.

[Rey Garcia]

Both sides are correct . to clarify the throw it is a popular throw /tecnigue in many martial arts . It is also in fiore . the closer the arm is cranked to the body the less chance of a dislocation and the more of a take down it is . Try this (carfully) in your practice .First with the students arm close by his sholder . than try it with the had extend further away. you'll notice if you crank it closer it is more of a takedown and there is less chance for him to excape. Second the further you extend the hand away from his body (to the side ) the more strain it puts on the joint and chance of dislocation is increased however if he is strong he has more of a chance to (power out )escape.
The sholder is a very weak joint and its range of motion is strongest when it is closer to the body because it can get help from the upper pectoral muscle.
If the person is grounded it is necessary to stradle the opponent with your body and pull the elbow close to his rib-cage in order to isolate the joint to force a submission . But if you have a dagger like this guy does ,throw him down if it breaks it breaks ,if it dont it dont and stab him up either way .Thus ending the conversation <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Andrew Kesterson]

The escape to Oni Kudaki (and presumably to this as well), is deceptively simple: just step out, bend down slightly, and straighten your arm out. Voila. There's no force necessary.

[Kirk Siemsen]

You're right IF you don't do the footwork mentioned on this plate. If your opponent can turn their hips, then yes they can counter. But if you step behind their leg (see picture) it makes it quite difficult! I love Goliath, since it shows the great importance of footwork!

[Daniel Pope]

I'm somewhat confused by the plate we're looking at here. The lock differs somewhat from the usual configuration used in figure 4 locks or similar in jujutsu etc.

Notice that the figure on the right has his left arm intertwined with the attacker's arm, thus forming the main "locking component" of the technique. However, in order to effectively break the arm or dislocate the shoulder, it would have to be the other (right) arm doing the locking, so as to be able to rotate the defender's arm outward aganst its natural range of motion.

In the configuration shown, the arm, while held in position, would be unlikely to be broken, as there is no effective levering action being called into play. At best the opponent would be taken down over the right leg to the ground.

In the reverse configuration, in which the right arm of the figure on the right intertwines with the figure on the left, then a dislocation or breakage would be extremely likely (I've actually used this technique in jujutsu practice, and am well aware of its efficacy).

[Jeffrey Hull]

DP:

I think I get what you mean. If what you assert be the case, then perhaps you have found one of the rare illustrative mistakes which are known now & then in the fight-book literature. So if that be the case, we may assume that it was meant to show the technique as it actually worked, which we may still figure out, but for whatever reason, the artist got a little confused and made a mistake in portrayal. However, if it is accurate "graphicatem" (so to speak), then perhaps someone can explain how it may work in the manner as exactly portrayed (thus maybe we are both missing something). Otherwise, we should modify what is portrayed in actual practice to make it work as intended.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

In Fiore's dagger he has the same "lock", I do not know what plate or page exactly on my copy it is illustrastion 45, The caption say's "This is another tie to throw you to the ground and the opponent is not quite sure against this hold", this is also in Albrecht Durer's manual Pl 51and The Codex Wallerstein Pl 137 and CW call's it an arm break.


This is a standing top wrist lock, The guy on the rigth should be much closer to the left guy so that his right elbow is over, on the left guy's shoulder and his elbow should be under the tricep, I think this is done so the artist could illustrate what is going on.

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

Oh okay, that makes sense as you explain. So not a mistake by the fight-book or artist (my apology to him), but maybe his way of trying to give us an "exploded view" of the technique.

[JeffGentry]

Oh okay, that makes sense as you explain. So not a mistake by the fight-book or artist (my apology to him), but maybe his way of trying to give us an "exploded view" of the technique.

Hey Jeff

I think do to the fact they are both holding dagger's he is unable to actualy grip is opponent's wrist so would most likely hook with the dagger , So that make's it difficult to draw and carve also.

Jeff G.

[Jason Erickson]

The drawing makes the angle of pressure application unclear. Altering the angle changes the available options, giving a choice between takedown, joint disruption, bind, setup (for something else), or some combination of those. Better to use this as an example of a position from which to explore available options rather than as a specific technique.

[JeffGentry]

The drawing makes the angle of pressure application unclear. Altering the angle changes the available options, giving a choice between takedown, joint disruption, bind, setup (for something else), or some combination of those. Better to use this as an example of a position from which to explore available options rather than as a specific technique.

this is technique appear's to be named "Aber em stucth"

I think it translate's to over stick, am not real sure so don't quote me on that I do not speak german so i would not be surprised if i were wrong, This technique is illustrated in many german manual's though, so i think it is a safe to believe it is a top wrist lock with a dagger.

Jeff

[Jason Erickson]

Fixating on a single option when so many others are immediately available seems... less than optimal. Regardless of the author's intentions, we are endowed with the capacity to think in broader terms. Though the text may speak in terms of a specific technique, it is more advantageous to apply underlying principles to determine a broad range of opportunities and potential tactics from any given position/configuration.

[JeffGentry]

Fixating on a single option when so many others are immediately available seems... less than optimal. Regardless of the author's intentions, we are endowed with the capacity to think in broader terms. Though the text may speak in terms of a specific technique, it is more advantageous to apply underlying principles to determine a broad range of opportunities and potential tactics from any given position/configuration.

There are a whole lot of option's from this position sure, It is alway's a good idea to learn to chain technique's together.


Jeff

[Martin Wallgren]

I must disagree with your view that the goal of this technique is to throw the adversary to the ground rather than to break his arm. The text in both Goliath and the Codex Wallerstein talk of breaking the adversary’s arm, not throwing him to the ground.

This can be also a translation problem. Bruch in old german is very close related to the modern swedish bryta. Bryta could be translated into break but also means to put leverage or press hard.

Just a thought...