Theory: Why No Rear Naked Choke

[Jake_Norwood]

Re: Jay Vail

I believe that that collection is in SGT Larsen's private possesion for the moment. I'll see if I can't get access to some of that.

Re: Tim, etc.

The Army is working very hard right now to change that. All Officers and NCOs now go through combatives training during their basic courses. Additionally, a big part of the Modern Army Combatives program isn't just how to fight, but how to get people to want to train to fight. It's making very considerable headway, especially when one takes into account how long change takes in our Army.

And, BTW, I graduated from that course today, so I'm an official Level One Modern Army Combatives Instructor (oooh, aaaaah).

Jake

[Matt Shields]

What do you guys think of this trachea choke:
http://www.catchwrestle.com/blogs/index.php?p=23&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1#more23

It doesn't give the guy much of an opportunity to pull a knife, but it wouldn't incapacitate someone as fast as a strangle (like an RNC.)

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jake, Tim,

I was under the impression that all officers candidates at the USMA and USNA had to do boxing or some other art on offer there as a graduation requirement. That said, I do understand the academies only produce a minority of the officers in service and you have 4 days to teach 500 topics in active duty. That said, I have always wondered why uncle sam can't just cut back on all those useless hours of close order drill to free up training time for more useful tasks.

A thought on the rear choke. Why not if in that position just do a neck break (or a VERY careful neck crank in training)? It is faster than a choke so maybe the guy wouldn't have as much time to get that knife out. There is an illustration in Meyers Dolchfechten chapter that shows what to me looks a lot like a standing neck break. I have no clue what the companion text says (I am looking at every source I can think of for a translation), but the illustration looks pretty clear to me.

[Casper Bradak]

It doesn't give the guy much of an opportunity to pull a knife, but it wouldn't incapacitate someone as fast as a strangle (like an RNC.)

....while he's being choked. He'd have to get a guy with a knife into that position first...

[Casper Bradak]

Another reason I've encountered that knives are not used so much today: I was on a security force mission in haiti with my infantry unit for several months. Due to the nature of our task, we were pretty big on having easy access to one or two personal combat knives on our vests, our jobs sometimes didn't allow the space or warning for our rifles to be brought about quickly enough (and offtime MA classes were very encouraged).
So much so that after we were there for a couple of months, our CO decided that we weren't allowed to carry combat sized knives, because he figured we were scaring the natives. Made sense to him I suppose.

[TimSheetz]

Jaron: Neck Break?
I think many times the unarmed techniques are being used because if we wanted to kill them, we'd just shoot them. Plus, it looks bad when you snap the neck of a detainee.. no matter how much he may deserve it.

Perhaps we can llok at the incidents and get an idea of the circu,mstances of all these combats... they probably are not associated with suddenly being jumped while on patrol.. more like people start resisting arrest/detaining I think.

Jake:

I have been trying to figure out how I can get to the school just to get this training.. I don';t think my unit will pay to send me. BUt then again....

[Jay Vail]

I believe that that collection is in SGT Larsen's private possesion for the moment. I'll see if I can't get access to some of that.

Oops, sorry, Tim.

Jake, I'd really like to see that material. If you can get hold of Matt's stuff and share it on, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[Mike Cartier]

Everything you do in hand to hand combat changes if they have a knife, that goes for stand up grappling as well as ground fighting.

I suspect that many of you here have never been rear naked choked out. The rear naked choke is a blood choke, it works on the artery of the neck cutting off the blood to the brain. You will feel unconciousness imminent in 10 - 15 secs if they lock the position on. The only way you can deply a knife successfully in this situation is if you have successfully countered the hold with some of your own leverage, giving you the space and time to use the knife. If you simply go for the knife after he has it locked on you will go to sleep.

By the way they have the Rear Naked Choke in ancient Greek Pankration, called the "ladder".

[Jeff Hansen]

Did I miss something, or is everyone overlooking the idea that they may not have included any chokes because any choke takes time. Time which may be the death of you unless you can GAURANTEE that the guy you are choking doesn't have any friends coming to help. To hell with whether he's got a knife, it's what his buddies have that worries me. To my mind, any single technique that you can't finish and move on to the next threat in, say, 2 seconds TOPS, is unsuitable for use outside of a sporting context (or for you law enforcement types, bringing a suspect under control where you're pretty much assured nobody's going to jump in to help the bad guy). Just a thought, discuss it among yourselves <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

Okay, lots of stuff to reply to...

Re: Training at USMC

According to the most recent stuff I read, the USMC, at least, does require boxing. I wouldn't be suprised, however, if since late 2002 or 2003 Modern Combatives has been added as part of the POI.

At OCS, however, it's mandatory. Same with the up-and-coming Basic Officer Leadership Course (like PLDC for officers), which *all* commissioned officers will go to right after recieving their commission, prior to Officer Basic Course for their branch. Several of the guys in my Combatives Class were slated to be instructors there.

Re: Rear Naked Choke and Knives

While if done correctly it may be hard to get a knife, I've had lots of guys a lot stronger than me try to choke me out, and if they don't get the choke perfect (which I've only had done to me in a fight maybe 2 or 3 times out of dozens of attempts), then I have lots of mobility in my arms. Certainly enough to employ a dagger. Clearly the guys with the tasers at the Combatives Facility at Ft. Benning have seen the same thing.

That being said, in those 200+ recorded incidents, the rear-naked choke *does* appear rather frequently as probably the most successful technique. But again, that's against untrained opponents.

Re: Neck Breaks

I've never heard of a neck break being successfully used intentionally in real mano-e-mano combat. Anybody heard different? I know that "Prof. Tony Maynard" teaches "American Combat Jiu-Jitsu" which includes lots and lots of neck breaks. But seriously? I don't buy the neck break at all. Though I would be happily proven wrong *if* some kind of evidence can be proffered. For now, neck breaks and real fights seem like something that either happens when you drop a guy on his head, or it's an accident.

Re: Jeff's comment on time

Time is clearly an issue. Most Ringen techniques I can think of are quick and dirty. Get the job done fast, put the guy on the ground (staying standing), and get out of there. So yes, I think you might be on something there. However (!) there are a smaller number of holds and the like that *do* take a little more time, and these appear with much greater frequency than anything really resembling a choke.

Re: Meyer's "choke"

Give me the page reference for that and I'll check my translation.

Jake

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jake <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was mistaken in my reference. In Meyer's RAPIER (not dagger ) section, illustration I (the fellows in the front lower left) are doing what looks to me a lot like a neck break.

Also in Fiori, in the dagger section about 10 rows down is that looks like a rear choke and takedown against a fellow with a dagger.

[Casper Bradak]

Marozzo has a neck break, or at least a neck control technique, several others as well. Talhoffer and the wallerstein codex have a neck control technique that could concievably be a break.
I mentioned the tempo of real combat being a deterrent for choking techniques above.
If you can't deploy your knife in 10 to 15 seconds while in a choke, either you weren't wearing it with the intent to use it or you have other real issues. But that again sidesteps the issue of getting someone into a choke when they have a knife in the first place.

[Jay Vail]

in Fiori, in the dagger section about 10 rows down is that looks like a rear choke and takedown against a fellow with a dagger.

The better interpretation is that it is a rearward blocking throw, not a choke, known in judo as osto-otoshi. In aikido it is known as irimi-nage. The text to the Pissani-Dossi version says "You are *grounded* because of your poor knowledge . . ."

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

could it just be that a choke from behind is so basic that it just wasn't included in the manuel's? I doubt that any of the master's wrote down every last move that was/is out there, like striking, even a 2yr old know's how to hit another child.

Just a thought



Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

You may be right. I have read Fiore but don't count myself as really getting "flavor" of his art in the same way I am at least starting to get for Ringeck, Lichtenaur and Meyer.