ringen/wrestling

[Mike Cartier]

yes i noticed that right away too Jeff.

[Jake_Norwood]

Ah, that's what you meant. Yeah. What Mike Said.

Jake

[Gene Tausk]

Jeff:

I'm a little confused as to your question (it doesn't take a lot to confuse me <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), but here goes an attempted reply.

1. If you are asking what is the value (if any) of ringen in understanding the longsword, I would say it is of immense benefit. Wrestling, IMHO, is second-to-none for teaching the core essentials of combat, including balance, footwork, the ability to "read" your opponent and general all-around defense. These abilities, learned from wrestling, clearly carry over into use of the longsword.

2. The ARMA Southside group uses GR wrestling as a foundation for kampfringen. We use wrestling drills and programs for about 1/3 of every class. During some of our 8 week training sessions, we will focus exclusively on kampfringen.


Hope this helps.


---------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Houston Southside

[G.MatthewWebb]

Mike,

What are the Sumo and Pummeling drills?

The Pankration drills you posted are really neat. Look forward to learning more about the practical applications of your Pancration research.


Matthew Webb
OKC, OK

[Mike Cartier]

The Sumo drill is where two fighters stand in a small area, preferably with a ring of your fellow students around you to create a circle. The two fighters then preceed to try and push each other out of the circle. There are 3 basic responses here, Push back and push opponent out of the circle if strong enough.
Pivot and go with the opponents energy and let hm push himself out with a helpful push from you.
The last response is to snap down the head and get the opponent to go to a hand or knee . Either pushing the opponent out of circle, snapping them down to a hand or knee touch or pivoting ad pushing them out is worth a point. Fight to the best of 3 points and have the whole class do it with several people both weaker and stronger than themselves.
I find it develops great attributes for stand up grappling.


The pummle drill is when two fighters clinch up in the Over-Under clinch (grasp one arm under you armpit and put you head next to opponents heads on his shoulder). Start the drill by swimming the hands, that is attempting to get both hand in a waistlock clinch (double underhooks) the opponent will swim his hands to maintain the over under clinch on the other side thus breaking the leverage necessary to dothe double underhook control. Fight until one fighter gets either double underhooks (front clunch), side or rear clinch (arms around waist from rear or side. Again fight to 3 points but, no circle is necessary.

So the Sumo drill is a standing grappling or entering to grapplling drill and the pummel is a clinch drill.

There are more advanced versions of the drills of course where you add more positions or conditions to win the point.


We would also like to be doing some takedown defense drills but we workout in the park so its not good for too much groundfighting or too many takedowns.

[JeffGentry]

Hey folks

Gene your answer was partialy right on target, the reason i say partialy on target is do you guy's ever spend time just wrestling and try to get the hold's at full speed? In an unstructured way so as to do it with out each other knowing what is happening as opposed to ok let's do this move or serie's of move's full speed?

We would also like to be doing some takedown defense drills but we workout in the park so its not good for too much groundfighting or too many takedowns.

I don't understand, why is it diffcult to do ground fighting or takedown's in the grass?

Myself and Jaron do it we are not going to do a firemen's carry throw we will use trip's and such though.

Jeff

P.s. Gene i used your Israeli falling drill awhile back and was actual successful at stabing Jaron on the way up, lol it did work beautifly at full speed he never saw it coming ran right on to my point arm's up to oberhau me.

[Mike Cartier]

Jeff i think its dangerous to play on the ground with pure groundfighting too much in gras thats got anything hard in it.

Its doens;t take much to wresck your knee.
Throws are even more dangerous but can still be done with some basic rules, but all it taks is a fall head first into a hard target or and elbow landing on a hidden rock and you are out of training for months.

i always insist of knee pads but they get shifted around during the fight and the knees get uncovered.

perhaps i am over cautious but i have had surgery on my right knee from doing BJJ on padded matts and am currently on BJJ school break to heal my left knee before so it doesn't need surgery so maybbe i am biased <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

matthew webb i am not sure what Pankration drills you are talking about? Perhaps you mean the video i recently posted on another elist of some pankration free sparring me and David Knight were doing ? If that was the case that was free fighting not drills. If you haven't seen the freefighting videos ill send you a link to them if you like. They are kinda sloppy as were were exhausted but not bad for our irst sparring.

[philippewillaume]

Hello

Just to play the devil advocate here may be we are putting to much of our modern experience in it?

I cannot really cast a stone at you since I think that ringen, longsword, messer, sword and buckler, half swording or spear has a lot in common. Then again I believe as well that Ringeck gives us an integrated combat system....

I.E you rely on the same principles all the way through. So your longsword is goind to help your sword and buckle and vice versa and the same goes for Ringen.

The problem is that the style of aikido I practice is based on the ry ai syetem where you are using the sword and the jo to enhance you open hand technique (tai-jutsu). Whatever movement and principle we do with the jo or bokken can be found in tai-jutsu.
I am no saying that I think ringeck longsword is there to enhance ringeck open hands. However I think the same idea stands you are using the same principles with all weapons or at least a common set of principles.
The strike hinm so that your points hit and his fall spings to mind..

If you prefer I am mentally ready to see similar type of relationship and may be we are all doing the same here.
And as far as I can tell it works but it is not because it works that it is true

That being said I think you need a background in hand to hand before trying to understand/interpret ringen, Especially early manuscript which are not ultra prolix.


phil

[G.MatthewWebb]

Mike,

I mistyped when I typed "Pankration drills"; I was thinking about the links to the videos of the Italian group that is reconstructing Pankration which you've posted.

I don't think I've seen the Pankration sparring video that you and Knight posted. I would love to see the link. You can email me at gmatthewwebb@yahoo.com

Thanks for the description of the Sumo and Pummeling drills!

Matthew Webb
OKC, OK

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

That being said I think you need a background in hand to hand before trying to understand/interpret ringen, Especially early manuscript which are not ultra prolix.

I am wondering how much people go into the basic's of wrestling (i.e. the pass behind, single leg take down, double leg take down, defending against these) before they go right at the hip throw, key or whatever other technique we see illustrated in a good majority of the manuel's.

I haven't done alot of wrestling I by no mean's consider myself a good wrestler, the above example's are basic thing's in wrestling and if i don't know how to do a pass behind on my opponent in actual wrestling then i cannot effectively do it while trying to execute a technique in the manuel in which they use that to setup the technique.

I am trying to get a feel for how much other group's do wrestle to work on basic skill's of wrestling and whether they have seen a diffrence in there sword training if they do.

I do not practice any EMA or any other martial art for that matter, this is it, i do not see myself in another martial art other than this, I did "study" alot of martial art's when i was younger(a teenager) by reading and sadly the only one that realy impressed me was Tao of Jeet kundo.


Jeff

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Jeff:

You wrote:

"Gene your answer was partialy right on target, the reason i say partialy on target is do you guy's ever spend time just wrestling and try to get the hold's at full speed? In an unstructured way so as to do it with out each other knowing what is happening as opposed to ok let's do this move or serie's of move's full speed?"

My class is too new to really get into this. However, at higher levels, we will be doing "full contact" GR wrestling. I believe GR wrestling is safe enough, yet has enough martially sound techniques, to instill a good sense of wrestling foundation.

The next level will be to use ringen techniques in disarms, etc. This will be another part of the class.

You wrote:

"Gene i used your Israeli falling drill awhile back and was actual successful at stabing Jaron on the way up, lol it did work beautifly at full speed he never saw it coming ran right on to my point arm's up to oberhau me."

Glad it worked for you!


-------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene

[JeffGentry]

Hye guy's

I am going to revisit this thread.

My class is too new to really get into this. However, at higher levels, we will be doing "full contact" GR wrestling. I believe GR wrestling is safe enough, yet has enough martially sound techniques, to instill a good sense of wrestling foundation.

i think some of the Greco roman wrestling will apply it will not teach some of the basic principle's of movement that we are using in our ringen.

Myself and Jaron have been doing alot of dagger work lately, and there seem's to be a few thing's that are used to do some of the dagger defense technique's that realy go hand in hand with wrestling such as the pass behind, single leg take down.

we are also noticing(at least we think) there is quit abit of footwork that is not mentioned in the text to get from point A to b in a technique and with out the foot work it is confusing and not realy sound.

could this be why some technique's are hard to figure out or almost useless at full speed?

this is MHO

Jeff

[Jared L. Cass]

I saw this story on the CBS Early Show this morning. Thought you guys would appreciate it <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/29/earlyshow/series/heros/main683818.shtml

"Sport" wreastling put to the real world test! Pretty cool.

Jared L Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jared

I think alot of "Sport" wrestling is effective IMO what is lacking is the ability to gain a submission or in combat to break bone's, remember the goal in "sport" wrestling is to pin the shoulders.

I was watching the show the Ultimate fighter and one contestant Josh Koscheck is a good wrestler when he take's people down though he lack's the skill's to gain a submission, and he lost because of that, he has trained to go for the shoulder pin and he need's to change his mind set and learn more submission's and how and when to apply them.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

yes Josh has great takedowns but can't finish or seem to pass anyones guard.

I think the real, benefit of the holdem down on thier shoulders style of wrestling is that its better for holding folks down to beat them or to use a weapon rather than to submit them . That is if you train for using a weapon or to ground and pound. Both styles of ground fight require specific training though which most wrestlers don't get to do. as you said the mindset has to change.

i detail this exact use of the ground fighting in my pankration research, there is a particular type of body movement used on the ground or in clinch for a grappler to apply strikes or weapons. It can be seen in some old Greek sources.