A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

[Jeffrey Hull]

DKn:

FYI: That similar Buben-match is found in Talhoffer-1467 in plate 86 (pollaxe) and plate 207 (wrestling).

JH

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

I was just looking at the 1467 Talhofer Plate 86 Talhoffer call's it the "knave hold", then in plate 207 he call's it "knave wrestling".

I looked at the German an in 86 he actual call's it "buben wurff", then in 207 he call's it "buben ringen", my german is non existant and i wonder why he would use these diffrent ending term's if they are not two diffrent thing's, I looked at other plate's to do a word association and all could find was a few time's in a trap or grip he use's wurfft or werff i think is a throw, is there maybe a mistake in the use of the word wurff in the english translation and he is not being derogatory only indicating a bad trap, hold or throw?

remember i know nothing of german. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jeff

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hi,

Wurf means throw. Werfen means throing.

Bub just means Guy, or young guy, to be precise. (Buben wurf = The Guy throw - or an action meant to throw a guy)

Ringen means wrestling, but sometimes it stands for any groundwork-technic.

I guess it's almost the same meaning.

Szabolcs

[JeffGentry]

Szabolcs
See that was the context i was getting looking at diffrent image's not so much the Talhoffer was being derogatory, and if most of this is "related" to wrestling then you have to be able to handle yourself on the ground because in wrestling someone is alway's going to be throw to the ground that is the point after all.

I just happen to notice the wurff and wurfft thing in the German text and what was being said in those 2 plate's didn't seem to match the rest of the plate's were other form's of the word's were used and lacking knowledge of german i didn't know whether they were past tense future tense or completly diffrent word's.

So i guess it is safe to assume Talhoffer doesn't realy have a problem with the ground game in wrestling.

Jeff