No clothing grabs in wrestling.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I've found a lot of techniques that match up from judo. Just replace the sport conventions with combat ones for example, judo requires sweeps with the bottom of the foot for niceness, but you can see nearly identicle techniques in our manuals where the sweep is being performed with the shin."

My speculation is that there are more commonalities between EMA and WMA grappling than there are to EMA and WMA weapon usage. I think this has to do with different weapons being used differantly (as well as the method of transmission over time with us getting the lessons from the manuals and EMA from a living chain of instruction that to some degree alters over time) whereas the human body in wrestling is identical universally. You use a katana different than a jian than a longsword against opponenent who have vastly different armors depending on the culture and era. In wrestling, the hip throw is the hip throw in all times and places.

[Jay Vail]

My speculation is that there are more commonalities between EMA and WMA grappling than there are to EMA and WMA weapon usage. I think this has to do with different weapons being used differantly (as well as the method of transmission over time with us getting the lessons from the manuals and EMA from a living chain of instruction that to some degree alters over time) whereas the human body in wrestling is identical universally. You use a katana different than a jian than a longsword against opponenent who have vastly different armors depending on the culture and era. In wrestling, the hip throw is the hip throw in all times and places.

I agree that ringen and judo/chin na/fast wrestling bear striking resemblences to each other. When I first began studying the manuals I saw how identical ringen techniques were to what I have practiced for years in E/AMA.

I tend to disagree with your feeling that EMA and WMA weapons arts are different. The longsword techniques as taught by JC are exactly those we practiced for the staff (my system uses weapons methods from Vietnam, which appear to have been heavily influenced by the Chineses). Indeed, this is something that attracted me to ARMA in the first place, and helped convince me that ARMA was on the right track.

Moreover, I have some small exposure to Japanese swordsmanship (I do emphasize the small). That is supplemented with the study of a number of videos of kenjutsu kata, which consist of pairs drills, including a video with more than 40 kata from shinkage ryu kenjutsu. It is amazing to me how similar in many respects the kata on these videos are to ARMA longsword interpretations -- including use of the krumphau to attack the arms and half swording. I would also point out that the guards of kenjutsu, for the most part, are identical to those advocated by western masters for the longsword. I have also seen many things in non-Japanese systems that are eeriely similar to ARMA longsword interpretations. For instance, I attended a seminar last spring by an Okinawan karate guy who had spent years studing Chinese weapons forms. I watched him explain an application to a move from a form that was identical to a move taught in Talhoffer for the one-hand sword.

So I would not be so quick to claim that EMA and WMA are so dissimilar. The available data do not support this conclusion.

However, there are significant difference and those cannot be papered over. Reliance on the short edge is one of them. I have not seen the master cuts emphasized or described to the same degree as they have been by the western masters, although at least a few of them are used or implied.

[Logan Weed]

Short edge? Is this identical to the term 'false edge' meaning entire back length of the blade, e.g. what faces towards you when holding the sword straight out and forward?

Chinese Jian uses a lot of cuts with the false edge.

[Randall Pleasant]

Yes, the short edge is the same as the false edge. And of course, the long edge is the same as the true edge.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Is there an asian version of the Krumphau? Where can I find a video of this?

[philippewillaume]

A krump is a cut to the arms with the long edge (or throwing the point with or without crossed arms (if we are cutting from cut from our right)
You can find that in aikido (jo and bokken)

Personally, I would says that it is easier to see the resemblance between open hand MMA and EMA than between
A renzuko (continuous) cut has the same effect and purpose that the absetzen with the krump in ringeck.
The difference being that with ringek we are tool to strike with short edge as soons as it rings.
And in aikido or in kenjustsu there is no short edge so you aheve to strike with eth long edge de facto doing more of an abnehmen
So there is a potential for counter to that, that is, in the absolute, bigger than with the “ringeck” way.
But in relative terms, IE according to the respective weapons, they are as safe as each other because of the nature of the cut.

phil

[Filip Pobran]

my self-defense teacher said:
"why?! because you will have both ripped piece of his clothes and his fist in your face!" (hmmmm.. when i translate it to english, it ain't so funny at all)

[David_Knight]

Mair has quite a few clothing grabs. I hope to have an article on PHM's unarmed chapter online over the summer.

[Jason Erickson]

Clothing grabs are easy and often very handy. I have seen videos that go into extreme detail on how to drill grips and how to use/counter them. The disadvantage of cloth grips is that clothing may slip off, tear, or otherwise permit the opponent more movement than if you had a direct grip.

Direct contact with the body permits greater sensitivity to an opponent's movements to assist you in attack and defense while reducing their ability to resist manipulations.

As for the t-shirts, why not simply wear old t-shirts or something else in place of the ARMA shirt for that part of your practice?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jason

As for the t-shirts, why not simply wear old t-shirts or something else in place of the ARMA shirt for that part of your practice?

This is why i wear my ARMA t shirt if it get tore in practice no big deal, I am not a big fan of clothing grab's i usualy try to grab, if i get a hold of there shirt no big deal i realy want to get a hold of them though.

Jeff

[Daniel Pope]

Conversely, most Judo/Jujutsu techniques can be applied without using the clothing grabs - hip throw techniques use the hands to guide an opponent, not to lever him over your hip - the actual throw can be executed without "grabbing" at all.

(Of course, this doesn't apply in the cases of shimewaza - choking techniques - or in the case of attacks which rely on grasping the obi).

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I agree Dan, nice post. sometimes we can overthink clothing grabs, it depends on what your goal is. In training it makes sense, to use as a way to lever your opponent, but I would much rather train not using them.

In a real-fight application, I wouldn't waste my time with them, I figure that instead of using the energy for a grab I would just as soon, use a palm strike or other striking technique. In training whenever some grabs my clothing I will usually just begin to strike directly at my opponent's head, either over thier arms or using uppercuts. Whe they grab the clothing they are occupying thier hands and arms olng enough to get a few good shots in which is usually enough to force them on the defensive.

The one caveat, is in colder climates where heavy winter coats are worn, I have taken ALOT of folks down using a grab of thier winter coat. It's usually made of nice big soft material, and makes a perfect target for these kinds of techniques.

Aaron Pynenberg

[JeffGentry]

Conversely, most Judo/Jujutsu techniques can be applied without using the clothing grabs - hip throw techniques use the hands to guide an opponent, not to lever him over your hip - the actual throw can be executed without "grabbing" at all.

(Of course, this doesn't apply in the cases of shimewaza - choking techniques - or in the case of attacks which rely on grasping the obi).

Actualy Dan

You can do the choke without grabbing the sleeve's go to your elbow's instead, That is how it is done in catch wrestling.

Jeff

[LynGrey]

Most manuals don't do clothing grabs because that isn't always a constant.... You could grab someones collar and it rips, they slide out of the shirt (i'm good at that), the clothing piece twist, lots of things happen that aren't expected and can throw you off rhythm. When grabbing the body it elimnates that chance, and thus you are only failing and succeeding on your technique and not someone's shirt.

Some places teach clothing grabs or Gi fighting.. but thats strickly competition fighting.... i've never fought anybody wearing a Gi outside of competition, what about you?

[Martin Forrester]

The one caveat, is in colder climates where heavy winter coats are worn, I have taken ALOT of folks down using a grab of thier winter coat. It's usually made of nice big soft material, and makes a perfect target for these kinds of techniques.

Aaron Pynenberg

First post here:
This makes me wonder if any throws were performed using a lightly armoured opponent's Jaque. It's not going to rip, it's close fitting, you have good purchase at the neck, lower edge, the overlap up the chest if the jaque fastens that way, and the cuff or armpit depepnding on sleeve length. There were certainly enough jaques on a battlefield to make this worth considering, but maybe it just went without saying that you should adapt techniques to the situation.

ps. Would you go on a 15c battlefield or to a duel in your ARMA t-shirt & joggers? I'd opt for something more substantial myself...