Western Boxing

[KatherineJohnson]

Boxing is probably one of the single most effective martial arts I can think of for self defense or sport useage. If you think that elbows, knees, and kicks would give you the upperhand on a good boxer, you are highly mistaken.

Kicks, while quite powerful, are rarely good for the fight ending shot, elbows usually cause more cuts then KO's, and knees do more core damage that breaks people down over time. (It's much harder to knee people in the face then most people think.)
Your hands are the most likely weapon to use for fast effective knockouts, and boxing style punches will do the job.

I think it's very sad that this aspect of our western martial heritage is so incredibly underestimated. I'd happily pit good boxer against practically any other type of standup martial artist.
I thinkyou guys should watch this video to get an idea of the speed, precision, and power that a good boxer has

http://s45.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0H218OY82FX2K30OGUJY8DPDT0


Knee kicks. I get kicked in the knee on a daily basis, round kicks to the side of the knee (with the foot and the shin), I've been straight side kicked in the knee, had my knee stomped, never had any damage done to it.

When people try and kick me in the thigh I actually make it a point to try and catch it on my knee because usually it hurts them and they stop throwing that kick.


Grappling, if grappling is such a horrible idea in a real fight, then why do the manuals teach it? Why is it so successful in MMA?

Of course, another point is that it's usually not your choice whether or not you want to grapple. No matter how many times people assert that "grappling is a bad idea in a real fight" that doesnt make them any less likely to be taken down.

Grappling knowledge allows you to control the takedown insuring that you are the one that winds up with dominant position, from which you can control the fight on the ground, or you can get back up.

Also, it's pretty difficult to elbow people from the ground most times. Usually you lack the room and leverage to do so, but if you break someones arm, thats an instant fight ender.

On untrained grapplers I can usually get a takedown, dominant position, and a submission/break in about 15-30 seconds. You'd have a tough time matching that for a fight ender with strikes.

[Jeremy Martin]

Why is it such a bad idea to go to the ground? I thought I covered that pretty clearly. In a ring you're not going to have 10 of his buddies stomp your head in, even if they do it all the time in MMA.

[KatherineJohnson]

No matter how many times you say it, it doesnt make you any less likely to wind up there.

Furthermore, why is it that he has 10 buddies and I dont have any of my friends?

I have dozens of street fights on my hard drive, I'd say 85% or better wind up on the ground, maybe 4 out of 50 have multiples involved.

Grappling has good odds.

Besides, by learning to take people down, you can take them down hard and finish it easy. I can think of few fight enders more effective then slamming someone on the ground.

[Jeremy Martin]

Well, if you have extensive video experince, I guess I have to bow to that.

Obviously, boxing has it's fanboys too. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll just have to agree to disagree and leave this thread alone, because I don't think I'll convince anyone and I'm certainly far from convinced so it'd just be pointless arguing.

[Mike Cartier]

ok Katherine is starting to scare me, i will be sure to bring my entire study group with me as backup protection should i ever need to visit a ARMA seminar that Katherine is at <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would remind you folks who are using MMA as an argument about the bad habits of boxing. MMA = BJJ, wrestling, boxing, muay thai and maybe some Judo.
Mostly (there are exceptions)

Why is it such a bad idea to go to the ground? I thought I covered that pretty clearly. In a ring you're not going to have 10 of his buddies stomp your head in, even if they do it all the time in MMA.

So what would his 10 buddies be doing while you are boxing or kickboxing? Standing around?

The beauty of grappling is that people even today think they won't have to grapple if they don't want to and the grappl;ing phase is the hardest phase to learn due to its peculiarities.

boxing and kickboxing is where you learn your hands, BJJ, Judo and wrestling is where you learn your grappling and Muay Thai or some forms of Karate are where you would learn your full body striking skills.

The weakness to only using boxing as your self defense art is that you are stuck in a single phase of the fight. Similar to if you only decided to sword fight in the Krieg and not use the Zufechten or the Abzug.
This is the same weakness that can be seen in every art as there is no super art, only a super art made up of the best of the arts.

The whole thing about gloves in boxing is a bit overblown, i use boxing gloves to spar but use mma gloves to work the clinch fighting and ground strikes. Its not as much of a hinderance as many say.

*defends katherinejohnson's takedown attempt and blocks for knees to the head before running away* <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jeremy Martin]

Ok, one more. Yes, I agree with Mike. All I was trying to say was modern western boxing is too limited. Not trying to diss on anyone's l33t skillz.

[Randall Pleasant]

Gene

I will second your opinion. I can't say that I know much about boxing or wrestling. However, some of my worse experiences of my life were at the hands of men who knew how to box and/or wrestle. The kickers made for much more enjoyable experiences to reflect upon. I am currently trying to find a good boxing class for my son.


Mike

Wasn't there a saying when MMA first started that went something like, "Boxers learned to grapple, grapplers learned to box, and everyone else went home"?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Here's another good one I like- "grappling may be your thing-but-blunt force is king" , Aaron

[KatherineJohnson]

Well, if you have extensive video experince, I guess I have to bow to that.

In addition to that, every all three of my "street fights" went to the ground, aswell as every fight I have ever seen in person.

+ I train to fight professionally.

What's your experiance, again?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Katherine has a good point it bothers me to no end when people comment on fighting about this and that, and when trying to check out the person's frame of refrance in thier personal profile they just leave it blank-not cool.

What happens then is you get no "feel" for the person or where they are coming from, so people please fill in that stuff so we know what you are about-- I would love to see that become mandatory- Aaron

[Corey Roberts]

Generally speaking, In my opinion, (which I can't back up because I have no experience whatsoever but nonetheless) I would say that neither grappling, nor striking is in itself "Superior" the human body is capable of doing both, and both should be used in their appropriate context. The ancient greek art of "Boxing" as refered to earlier, was known as Pankration and was actually boxing and wrestling combined. Employing a wide range, of punches, gouges, kicks, grabs, throws, twists, shoves, and pretty much anything a person can do in order to inflict harm on another person ( the only thing prohibited in the rules was gouging of eyes). This was designed to train young men to fight as effectively as possible, and to kill their opponents in the heat of battle. To fight is to use ones entire body. The "Grappling" vs. "striking" debate seems alot like the Cutting Vs. Thrusting debate, probably both are very useful it just depends when one or the other is necessary or best suited for a particular situation. In regards to the whole "Boxing is best" or "Boxing is no good" argument I think that probably anyone who participates and trains extensively in some kind of fighting sport/art that focuses on free sparring and learns how to effectively make strikes, OR effectively perform grappling attacks is probably a HELL of a lot better off in a fight then someone who has no effective training in how to do either.

[Mike Chidester]

Let me add that Gene's comments about challenging a boxer to a fight are irrelevant and somewhat foolish. I, for example, may train kampfringen about 1 hour a month, where dedicated boxers train boxing several hours a week at least. Of course I'd "lose" to a boxer under such circumstances. If he challenged me to a sword fight, the opposite would be true. Neither has any relevance. If that boxer were to train at kampfringen or any other mixed martial art as intently as he does at boxing, he'd be a better fighter for it. That's my entire point.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Kat

Furthermore, why is it that he has 10 buddies and I dont have any of my friends?

Because you like to hit all your friend's. ROFL

Jeff

[KatherineJohnson]

Because you like to hit all your friend's. ROFL

Jeff

I'm weeding out the weak ones, now all the friends I have left are professional and amateur boxers, kickboxers, and MMA fighters <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[KatherineJohnson]

Mike, no argument that any kind of effective training in any effective martial art will certainly increase ones capacity to fight and win.

My only argument is that boxing is at least as street valid and effectiveas pretty much every other martial art out there.