Unarmed Fighting by Body Type

[Kevin Holmes]

striking I agree, having a reach advantage is HUGE. I'm 5'10" and 165 lbs and 17 years old. I have a reach as long as my 6'4" friend. I'm pretty lanky. I'm a decent striker from the "free movement phase." My biggest strength is in my clinch and ground work however. I am able to take down much larger men 6'2" 350 lbs. to men that are 5'6" 210 lbs and wrestlers. I've been training in submission wrestling for about 9 months and i can dominate some purplebelts and almost all blue belts no gi. There are moves which favor certain body types. Long legs favor leg locks, armbars, and triangles while short limbs favor bent arm locks and sweeps. You just have to adapt.

[LynGrey]

striking I agree, having a reach advantage is HUGE. I'm 5'10" and 165 lbs and 17 years old. I have a reach as long as my 6'4" friend. I'm pretty lanky. I'm a decent striker from the "free movement phase." My biggest strength is in my clinch and ground work however. I am able to take down much larger men 6'2" 350 lbs. to men that are 5'6" 210 lbs and wrestlers. I've been training in submission wrestling for about 9 months and i can dominate some purplebelts and almost all blue belts no gi. There are moves which favor certain body types. Long legs favor leg locks, armbars, and triangles while short limbs favor bent arm locks and sweeps. You just have to adapt.

Anybody with a serious size advantage on me.. i tend to go for a takedown and work on the ground because most people alarge rely on that Size for hitting people.... actually anybody large than me i shoot for... unless the strikes i use to soften them up actually makes a KO or i can tell i'm doing alot of damage. I fight alot of lanky people where i train at, ALOT and in the grapple... its hard for them to get into any good positions... but good goggly moggly when they do... those long limbs give them alot of leverage. Also from what i've leanred, larger people have a harder time getting up... considering my disdain for the ground i get up kick, and that second where i'm up and they are still down gives me a serious advantage now. Either way, as i say... this is a sweeping generalization that i've found. I've just found that is the stout people that are killer in the ground work. That and i guess the level change for shooting is less.. which makes it that much quicker.

[AlexCSmith]

Not only does body type and size matter when deciding what unarmed skills to emphasize but it makes a big difference with individual techniques within a larger skillset.

For example I am a positively huge man (6'3",400lbs) with a good portion of that weight located in my lower body. Legs like trees have always stood me in good stead when grappling in general ( I have a number of medals from USA wrestling and AAU national freestyle and Greco/Roman tournaments) however they make certain techniques (eg the Triangle Choke) almost impossible for me to do properly.

Ultimately while generalizations can help to point you in a certain direction you have to find where your own aptitudes are. Beyond that effective unarmed combat is about making those things you excell at into the factors that determine the outcome of the conflict.

[Jason Taylor]

I'd say everyone should practice the skill sets Jay put out there, in some degree. As far as emphasis, it seems it's really dependent on intent.

Sport point fighters, for example, need to do no damage to win. So they focus on things like quick backfist jabs and chops that can land on top of the head and score a point. It's one of the reasons I dislike point fighting, since in a real fight I'll happily eat that shot if I can land a hard right cross to the head.

Since we're all pretty much here looking for an intelligent martial system, though, I really have to reiterate my usual response: nobody should focus on ground work as a primary combative measure if real self defense (or realistic reconstructed fighting systems) are the goal. Submitting somebody in a match is all well and good, but I have rarely seen submissions effected in the time a knockout blow can be delivered. And in that time, he has a great chance to employ one of two options he may have, and that I would always assume he has: Weapons and friends. In a RMA scenario, I'd think this is even more likely, as you sometimes might need to employ these techniques in a non-match situation.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't think it's useful. But when I think of emphasizing an aspect of training, I think of doing something a zillion times until it's second nature. The problem I have with focusing on groundwork is that, if you've trained it that muich, you're going to do that automatically. So if I've practiced a million times doing a handparry to a shoot, and only 100,000 times doing a hand parry and right cross, then I'll be more likely to shoot in that circumstance because it's comfortable and natural for me. In a one-on-one fistfight, great. In a bar brawl with broken glass and stamping feet everywhere when the guy might have a knife or pick up a bottle, or worse yet, his two buddies pick up bottles, I just shot myself in the foot. In a battlefield scenario, that problem would be magnified by him automatically having friends and all of those freinds being armed with at least one pointy item. Ouch.

So I say, practice grappling as much as you can. But practice staying on your feet while grappling, and train yourself to throw the simple situational strikes more than anything else, regardless of size, because you want to be prepared to do that first, while the situation is still forming, before you get tied up with someone and in a position where extricating yourself might be a bit difficult.

Jason

[JeffGentry]

Jason

In a bar brawl with broken glass and stamping feet everywhere when the guy might have a knife or pick up a bottle, or worse yet, his two buddies pick up bottles, I just shot myself in the foot. In a battlefield scenario, that problem would be magnified by him automatically having friends and all of those freinds being armed with at least one pointy item. Ouch.

If I take you down I am going to try to gain a superior position and I am going to start pummeling you about the head and shoulder's, to which if you have a brain in your head you will defend and try to get me off, if you appear to be trying to access a weapon I am in a superior position and will not allow that to happen, how often do you go out alone to a bar/club where you do not anyone, Having spent some time in the military i would not wander the battle field alone either i alway's had one or 2 of my squad member's with me only a fool would wander the battlefield alone? I know it is not something i do.

So I say, practice grappling as much as you can. But practice staying on your feet while grappling, and train yourself to throw the simple situational strikes more than anything else, regardless of size, because you want to be prepared to do that first, while the situation is still forming, before you get tied up with someone and in a position where extricating yourself might be a bit difficult.

Last time I checked if I throw someone to the ground and they are uninjured my arm's are not nearly long enough to punch them while I am standing, so I may need to get down on the ground on top of them in the earlier said superior position to finish the job so ground fighting is necessary knowledge. I guess I could allow them to stand back up and try to throw them and injure them a sewcond time or try to knock them out a second time and give them a second oppertunity to do the same to me.

I know this is somewhat ridicules and that was my intent, the fact is when you have an advantage/superior position you never ever, ever, ever give up that position willingly.

Jeff

[RayMcCullough]

Your hands can't reach a downed opponent, but your feet can. Going to the ground with out a dominant pos. is always bad ( except in a MMA event), going to the ground with a dominant pos. can be bad depending on the situaion. A throw can be much more devastating on Wal-mart parking lot. The chance of serious injury( shoulders, head, neck) our much higher when you intentionally drive their head and neck on to a hard surface.

You can learn a lot from MMA, but you also can limit yourself to Techniques within that ruleset and that "artificial environment".
MMA fighters are not trying to intentionally injure each other. ofcourse they could , but that in itself changes the fight from sport to a fight for your life and limb.

[JeffGentry]

Your hands can't reach a downed opponent, but your feet can. Going to the ground with out a dominant pos. is always bad ( except in a MMA event), going to the ground with a dominant pos. can be bad depending on the situaion. A throw can be much more devastating on Wal-mart parking lot. The chance of serious injury( shoulders, head, neck) our much higher when you intentionally drive their head and neck on to a hard surface.

You can learn a lot from MMA, but you also can limit yourself to Techniques within that ruleset and that "artificial environment".
MMA fighters are not trying to intentionally injure each other. ofcourse they could , but that in itself changes the fight from sport to a fight for your life and limb.

Hey Ray

You are absoluetly right, I just think people have gotten into this mind set that "MMA type" technique's are not viable in street defense, We nee dto alway's remember what our intent is and that can change depending on the context of what we are doing.

I have been training in BJJ for a few month's now and also competing, In the gym there are some nasty little thing's i rarely do to my training partner's because it is just to cause discomfort to my opponent, now in comptetion i have no qualm's about doing it to my opponent because my intent is to make him as uncomfortable as possible for as much time as possible because this help's facilitate me gaining a position from which to submit him, so my intent in the gym, working on new thing's, becoming faster, becoming more adept on the ground, is somewhat diffrent than my intent in competition which is to gain a submission as quickly and easily as I possibly can i want a quick end not a protracted fight.

I just want all of us to keep an open mind and not limit ourselve's.

Jeff

[RayMcCullough]

Good Luck competing. I love MMA and am envious of those who get to compete. I'm to old and have a wife and kids (no time to train MMA), so I spend my spare time with ARMA training.

[Jason Taylor]

If I take you down I am going to try to gain a superior position and I am going to start pummeling you about the head and shoulder's, to which if you have a brain in your head you will defend and try to get me off, if you appear to be trying to access a weapon I am in a superior position and will not allow that to happen, how often do you go out alone to a bar/club where you do not anyone, Having spent some time in the military i would not wander the battle field alone either i alway's had one or 2 of my squad member's with me only a fool would wander the battlefield alone? I know it is not something i do.

One of my old instructors trained hours just on neutralizing grapplers long enough to draw his knife. I'm not an expert grappler, certainly, but he got the thing out, even when I knew where it was, pretty much every time. And at that point, usually I was screwed, mount or no mount. A few times I could control it, maybe apply something, but that was only a few.

And I did not suggest that one wanders the battlefield alone. I *said* if you practice shooting/taking down more then you will probably do so. If you end up on top, and you have friends, *maybe* they'll stop his buddy from stabbing you in the kidney. Or they might not. How far away are they? How fast are they? Do they see his weapon? Are there more of your opponents than of people on your side? Are your buddies too busy with their own problems? If you go into the mount, especially a low one, you might (and notice I said might, "might" meaning "too much chance for my liking, but feel free if you prefer") have effectively crippled your chance of defending yourself successfully against a standing person's attack. You want to trust your buddies, that's fine, but there are a hell of a lot of variables to control there.

Last time I checked if I throw someone to the ground and they are uninjured my arm's are not nearly long enough to punch them while I am standing, so I may need to get down on the ground on top of them in the earlier said superior position to finish the job so ground fighting is necessary knowledge. I guess I could allow them to stand back up and try to throw them and injure them a sewcond time or try to knock them out a second time and give them a second oppertunity to do the same to me.

Well, I do hit from standing, with regularity. Talk to the pentjak silat or haganah people. That's where I learned it (through some informal training here and there--I don't have a lot of background). They practice standing strikes on a fallen opponent and takedowns that allow those. The easiest one is to end up standing with one arm trapped, your opponent on his side, leaning your shins against his hips and ribs. I lean in to get the distance I need. I have done it, and I have had it done to me, in sparring, so it does work. Not that it ALWAYS works, but nothing really does anyway. But when I can't use this position or something similar, I usually resort to stomping. If you want to grapple instead, feel free.

I know this is somewhat ridicules and that was my intent, the fact is when you have an advantage/superior position you never ever, ever, ever give up that position willingly.Jeff

Well, of course not. But there are more definitions of "dominant position" than just "dominant ground grappling position." I described one above. Another is when you and your four friends are stomping a guy on the ground. I have no problem with being able to submit, I just said that immediately choosing to ground grapple is a poor tactical choice, especially when you don't have full control or understanding of the variables involved.

You are absoluetly right, I just think people have gotten into this mind set that "MMA type" technique's are not viable in street defense,

It seems that this is what you thought I was saying. However, please note that I did not say that at any point. I said that "going to the ground immediately is probably a bad idea, and if you train a lot to go there, you'll probably end up going there first." In which case problems may arise, because circumstances can be infinitely varied. MMA techniques are great. They also include a hell of a lot more than ground grappling, which is the only thing I referred to, and that only in an immediate-response/focus in training sense.

I suggested striking first because it keeps you mobile and standing, before grappling, because the "situation is still forming" and you might not want to "get tied up with someone and in a position where extricating yourself might be a bit difficult." Did that seem like a condemnation of all MMA techniques as useless in self-defense?

We nee dto alway's remember what our intent is and that can change depending on the context of what we are doing.

That was kind of my point, actually. That you want to keep your options open and be able to exercise all sorts of choices. Including running for it.

Jason

[philippewillaume]

Hello
I am not a MMA fan; I practice aikido and medieval wrestling. However regardless of the context of medieval wrestling or aikdido, the way MMA people go about the fight and especially breaking the distance is very valuable. In fact the shoot /take down/mount/pound is a good conceptual model.

Medieval throw are glorified takes down, i.e. you throw the guy but you keep hold of something and usually you have a hips throw in it for good measure, Basically him hitting the ground puts us in a dominant position.

We you shoot someone and you take him down, typically as you fall you already position yourself to get either a side control or a mount. (ok that it a bit of a caricature but)

The ideas is the same with the throw in ringen. It gives us one of the 3 unterhalten (pin)
The logic is the same but instead of ground and pound it is ground and stab (well strictly speaking ground and pin then do what you please with you free)

I have seem some BJJ/free wrestling mats that are as giving as Tatami mounted on a floor board, so accepting the hit from the take down/throw can be an option in that case.
Tatatmi without the floor board or the ground makes accepting the hit much less than an option.

That being said, there is shooting in medieval manual. (And its counter) however there is no ground technique “à la BJJ).
And the pin when you knee on the elbow and elbow on the throat is as easily accessible as a side control and it gives you the get out of here option that BJJ definitely doesn’t


I believe Jason rational is the reason why you do not have BJJ ground work in medieval wrestling.
It is a poor tactical choice given the circumstance.
It is very likely that someone will take pop at you if you tarry on the ground and or weapon that are dangerous even used from a dominated position. (is knives).


As far as self defense is concerned, I would say that MMA is not better not worse than any other martial arts/combat sports
I mean yes the BJJ part is not that great against several opponents or against knife but MMA-er can still rely on the punching and kicking.

Krav, TJJ, defendo , systema, Akido (when done meaning fully) will prepare you better for weapon and or several opponents.
But really it is only transforming a very bad situation into a slightly less very bad situation, nothing remotely close to clean bill of health.

phil

[Scott A. Richardson]

I would completely agree with this body typing thing. As for me, I have these squat little legs which make a great base for throwing punches and can deliver killer kicks, but when I get on the ground and try to wrap them around people I just can't do it. So for me, spending time studying ground techniques requires much more work than it would for someone with a different body type, and I would still not be able to do it as well.

[Mike Cartier]

going to the ground should not be a choice unless you are in a position to do so with advantage.
but more often than having to fight on the ground is a necessity caused by being thrown on your ass or knocked down and really then you have no choice. Without any skills on the ground you won't be getting up to do any striking. Not all ground fighting is about taking people to the ground, very often its just a skillset in a phase of the fight you know you might get put into.

Chuck Liddell is a perfect example, as he himself says. " I am a JiuJitsu guy, it might not look like it but i use my BJJ to keep the fight where i want it."

Its best to be prepared for all eventualities

[AlexCSmith]

Without any skills on the ground you won't be getting up to do any striking.

Qft

[Mike Cartier]

Qft

?

[AlexCSmith]

Quoted For Truth.

It means I found your comment to be so absolutely and profoundly true that I have nothing to add but my complete agreement.