A question on strikes?

[Jake_Norwood]

I'd love to see that, really.

I've seen KM with head-level kicks. As a guy who wears IBA for a living I can assure you that's a *bad* idea. However, I think that going to the ground (a la BJJ) is also a *bad* idea in modern battle-rattle.

Do you have any anecdotes/articles/examples/etc. of KM "Taking out the legs" of BJJ recently? I'd love to read 'em.

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

You metioned that KM is the more practical one compared to the Army's BJJ

i not sure I understand this comparison, from what I understan the army combatives have been injected with some ground fighting principles from BJJ. A good thing i think.

MMA is not BJJ anymore it is a synthesise of the Combat Sports, primarily its practitioners have a mixed bag of tricks from BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling (freestyle or greco-roman) and Judo. All these arts share one thing in common, they emphasis a sporting sparring aspect.

BJJ is really two arts, the one on one sport of MMA or as I prefer to call itNo Holds Barred. BJJ is also its self defense component which is an art unto itself and you actually see a alot of stuff that looks like Ringen.

As I understand MMA philosophy its to try and impose your phase of the fight, where thats Stand up, ground, throws or whatever. Submissions are nice if they are given but really you should be gaining a dominant position and beating the snot out of the guy, there is no place in MMA where striking is not part of the mix. BJJ tends to leave alot of striking out but its there.

What makes these arts gell into what we call MMA is they all rely heavily on a sparring testing component and attach heavy competitive elements to it. Combat sports are the backbone of western martial arts and MMA is no different. When you emphasis a heavy sparring element fancy stuff tends to get wiped away.

[LynGrey]

I'd love to see that, really.

I've seen KM with head-level kicks. As a guy who wears IBA for a living I can assure you that's a *bad* idea. However, I think that going to the ground (a la BJJ) is also a *bad* idea in modern battle-rattle.

Well the ground is the last place you want to go really, as an offensive player... as the defense you want to pull it to the ground. In KM you learn alot of "anti-grappling" as we call it. You get brought down, you find ways back up kicksly and quick ways to escape. I do believe there isn't much ground fighting in KM at all.. there are ground defenses, but everything i've seen has been stuff that opens up space and gives you time to get up or what ever.

Do you have any anecdotes/articles/examples/etc. of KM "Taking out the legs" of BJJ recently? I'd love to read 'em.

Jake

Well its been pretty much Ear say from friends and family in Military or in the Police Force. I know for sure that State Highway patrol in NC has been sending about 25 every 3 months for KM training rather than their current standard. I've here from friends in the Police force that they more elite people "SWATS" are learning KM. I've herd from people from Ft. Bragg that they got alot of training different than else where, and that their Trainers had on the KM pants =) I've also here my instructors talk about trying to get full contracts and more people to train for law enforcement agencies. I've seen a few documents he gets from KM stating some of the things that KM has accomplished and one was a contract for the Secrete Service in DC... I am prettyy sure you can Search Goggle and get hardcopies of alot of stuff. But from what it looks like KM is small time, but its starting to take over like a mold, or a fungus.. maybe a virus for Law Enforcement contracts =)

[Jake_Norwood]

Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying now.

Mike--to clarify, I'm saying that BJJ as a military combative, when wearing 50 lbs of armor, helmet, rifle (which is attached to your body), ammo, water, etc., has some severe drawbacks. There is no "safe place" to go to the ground on an Iraqi street, really. BJJ is fantastic in how quickly you can become competent against an unexperienced person (boxing show the opposite--that you become worse as a fighter initially before getting better).

Lyn--In my BJJ/KM comparison I was saying that part of the reason KM is a better military combative is because it doesn't emphasize ground work at all.

I've got books and DVDs and the whole 9 on KM...just no time to train it compared to swords and ringen, ya know.

Jake

[LynGrey]

Well you eed to find a little time =) you're missing out a whole lot =)

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

There are a number of way's you can drop someone and immediately or almost immediately go to a submission / break of some sort.

There are a few thing's that i think we are missing that come directly from the sport of wrestling, That I personaly feel are necessary to ringen and with a BJJ, JJ school on every corner it is more readily available than wrestling so people are looking to it for a grappling base and i think alot of people are unconciously trying to inject BJJ, JJ, or whatever into ringen, I think trying to come from a BJJ, JJ mindset does not work in ringen because BJJ especialy is very focused on going to the ground.

Thing's also change when we are talking about a modern, formaly trained military force, or a school where everyone has pretty much the same knowledge, It then become's more difficult to "submit" someone who know's the same move's and counter's to those move's that you do and the result become's more time spent on the ground trying to work a move and then counter his counter to accomplish a diffrent move that he may know how to counter.

example: I have not seen a shrug to an outside one on one when in a collar and elbow clinch, this is a move from freeestyle wrestling, it does allow you to go to other move's that are pictured in many of the fight book's.

Just my 2 cent's worth.


Jeff

[Michael Douglas]

But, back on topic. Like I said before, I've performed round kicks in sparring--in fact there's a combination in the Codex Wallerstein which uses two of them.

Jake that sounds like a fascinating combination, any chance of a link to pictures of that one?

And Lyn for clarity can you define your own idea of what is a 'round' kick and a 'roundhouse' kick, then maybe everyone can discuss them in this thread.

It's only last year, I know, but it's a good thread.

[Jake_Norwood]

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/91.jpg

The text reads (Zabinski Translation, p. 178-9):

"So one more trick: if you want to fight someone by running a thim, wait till he comes to you and wants to attack you with his arms; then hit his left leg with your right, and with your right hand hit him in the left ear so that he jerks his foort and his head back. Then hit his right leg with your left, as shown here, so that he falls down if you are quick. This can be done on both sides."

Jake

[Stewart Sackett]

A few thoughts:

MMA is not BJJ anymore it is a synthesis of the Combat Sports, primarily its practitioners have a mixed bag of tricks from BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling (freestyle or Greco-roman) and Judo. All these arts share one thing in common, they emphasis a sporting sparring aspect.

I would add to that observation, that both boxing & Muay Thai include realistic, or “full-contact”, striking. This distinguishes those arts from, for example, Tae Kwon Do; which, although highly competitive, relies on a system of point contact striking.

These are essential distinctions. To my mind; either the absence of realistic resistance from opponents or the absence of the intent to strike with genuine force quickly diminish an arts capacity to teach functional combative skills to its practitioners. In the worst cases (of which there are, tragically, an abundance) people are actually conditioned to behaviors which make them more likely to be hurt in violent altercations than if they were untrained.

Combat sports are the backbone of western martial arts and MMA is no different. When you emphasis a heavy sparring element fancy stuff tends to get wiped away.

& That’s a big part of why I decided to join ARMA. The Western arts are rooted in practical function.

Hey Gent's

There are a number of way's you can drop someone and immediately or almost immediately go to a submission / break of some sort.

There are a few thing's that i think we are missing that come directly from the sport of wrestling, That I personaly feel are necessary to ringen and with a BJJ, JJ school on every corner it is more readily available than wrestling so people are looking to it for a grappling base and i think alot of people are unconciously trying to inject BJJ, JJ, or whatever into ringen, I think trying to come from a BJJ, JJ mindset does not work in ringen because BJJ especialy is very focused on going to the ground.

Thing's also change when we are talking about a modern, formaly trained military force, or a school where everyone has pretty much the same knowledge, It then become's more difficult to "submit" someone who know's the same move's and counter's to those move's that you do and the result become's more time spent on the ground trying to work a move and then counter his counter to accomplish a diffrent move that he may know how to counter.

example: I have not seen a shrug to an outside one on one when in a collar and elbow clinch, this is a move from freeestyle wrestling, it does allow you to go to other move's that are pictured in many of the fight book's.

Just my 2 cent's worth.


Jeff

I agree with you that BJJ is essentially different from Ringen. I train in BJJ on a regular basis but it seems obvious to me that it’s not an art suitable to the pitched battles seen in Medieval warfare. When I close to grapple during ARMA training I try to limit myself to what little I know of Judo & Greco & what I can glean directly from the fightbooks. I try to avoid the ground as much as possible.

That is not to say I find BJJ useless. My increased familiarity with ground fighting makes it much easier for me to disengage from anyone attempting to wrestle on the ground & to rapidly return to my feet.