dagger defense questions

[Eric Dohner]

Hi Eric,

ever tried to cut through multple layers of linen and wool? Europeans clothing was made of layers of these type of fabrics, plus sometimes they were stuffed like a gambeson. More layers to get through to find flesh. Plus on the streets of America today when someone attacks you with a knife it will generally be a strongly commited attack. To the best of my knowledge, the mindset of sparring seems to be different than the mindset of an attack.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

Ah, righto! Thanks for mentioning that, I had somehow managed to miss that fact completely: my apologies.

[Brian Hunt]

No problem,

just all part of the learning process.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Eric Blackburn]

[quote="JeffGentry
Hey Brian

This has been my expeience also people tend to attack with a mindset of not getting hit rather than a minset of I'm going to do you serious harm or kill you and so do not realy commit to any attack because they do not want to get hit themselve's so it result's in a game of tag.

Jeff[/quote]

First post, people, so I hope I'm doing this right.

Jeff, you've got a good point here. I've done some dagger play and I've seen two types of attacks. One is just what you're talking about, the game of tag, little cuts that leave the attacker in a decent position to recover and to defend against counter attack. We tend to think of this as "fencing". The other is a committed attack, with intent to sink the knife or to cut a slash you could put your foot through. The first requires finesse and speed to avoid, along with good training. The second also requires a good strong body position. Actually, both types of attack require all of these, but the emphasis shifts a bit.

A committed attack should be thrown with the same energy as a good cross, or hook, and should be able to actually move the target, if it is to do the job. So, if you're receiving this attack, and defending against it, you absolutely need a stable stance, if you are to retain your position. This is assuming you can't move away from the energy, or intercept ahead of time. And even these still require a good body frame.

Something we've found helpful is to practice particular techniques, first alone, and slow to develop proper body mechanics. And then in a structured drill, with a little variety, gradually increasing speed. Eventually, this evolves into free play. The idea is to avoid having to go from 0 - 100 all at once.

There are different types and speeds of free play and each requires the appropriate level of equipment.

And, oh yeah, we tend to refer to knife play as "humbling". When you start feeling all the new lumps, bruises, scrapes and colorful markings on your skin, and you realize that each of these is probably a nasty cut.

Talhoffer had it right.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Eric

I've done some dagger play and I've seen two types of attacks. One is just what you're talking about, the game of tag, little cuts that leave the attacker in a decent position to recover and to defend against counter attack. We tend to think of this as "fencing". The other is a committed attack, with intent to sink the knife or to cut a slash you could put your foot through. The first requires finesse and speed to avoid, along with good training. The second also requires a good strong body position. Actually, both types of attack require all of these, but the emphasis shifts a bit.

This is where I think alot of people have trouble, In the way they think of "fencing", and where the emphasis is.

I realy like this definition of Defense and Protect from an article on the International Hopology society page.

Defense: - “the capability or means of resisting an attack”
Protect: - “to shield from danger, injury...”

While similar there effect on intent in training is diffrent and i think important, I do not necessarily defend myself I do try to protect myself at all time's.


Jeff

[Jason Taylor]

Is it possible also that the attacks might be carried out differently in the fechtbücher because many of these were intended for men at arms, and therefore a) they likely know it was coming, as in a military/battlefield scenario and b) there was armor involved, so those little draw cuts against the back of the hand ranged from far less effective to totally worthless? To get through mail, I'm assuming you'd need a decent stab, and it would still slow down a ton.

I'm not a dagger expert, of course. But the little background I've had with FMA and what I've seen of other knife systems seems to emphasize nickel and diming your opponent to death, slashing the hands and drawing blood, attacking the limbs, etc., but a lot of that seems to not assume armor. So a quick slash to the hand works--but not against a heavy plate gauntlet.

Just a thought. If I expected to be wearing mail, I'd be planning to ignore quick slashes for the most part, and instead to concentrate on defending the shots that can penetrate armor and do real damage.

Jason

[Jay Vail]

Is it possible also that the attacks might be carried out differently in the fechtbücher because many of these were intended for men at arms, and therefore a) they likely know it was coming, as in a military/battlefield scenario and b) there was armor involved, so those little draw cuts against the back of the hand ranged from far less effective to totally worthless? To get through mail, I'm assuming you'd need a decent stab, and it would still slow down a ton.

I'm not a dagger expert, of course. But the little background I've had with FMA and what I've seen of other knife systems seems to emphasize nickel and diming your opponent to death, slashing the hands and drawing blood, attacking the limbs, etc., but a lot of that seems to not assume armor. So a quick slash to the hand works--but not against a heavy plate gauntlet.

Just a thought. If I expected to be wearing mail, I'd be planning to ignore quick slashes for the most part, and instead to concentrate on defending the shots that can penetrate armor and do real damage.

Jason

There is no definitive answer for why the fight books depict techniques the way they do. The definitive answer can only come from the masters of that time. However, we can surmise that these techniques were intended to be used as and against committed blows; that is, blows that are launched with force without feinting which are meant to kill with that single blow.

The ancients understood the feint and recommended using it. Meyer contains advise about feinting and so does the Codex Wallerstein. Still, it appears that they expected opponents to deliver committed blows rather than feints.

Modern knife attacks also involve committed blows rather than feints, which normally you see in dueling systems like FMA.

Here are a series of examples of real combat. It ain't like the daintiness of touch fighting.

http://www.machovideo.com/article.php?article=3686