Arm break then drag, MMA video

[Mike Cartier]

yes you are right jay its more like that other technique taught by Meyer where you pop the hand inwards to get past it , sorta like a wrestling arm pass but his hand got caught inside at the elbow.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jay

I have no idea what hara/waki is.

The guy in the red and black short's pop's the guy in the black short's elbow from a similar starting position as that shown in Meyer that Mike referenced, the best example i Know of is from Codex Wallerstein.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/87.jpg

This is a front view and described from the right side, I do not think it is the exact same technique it is very close though.


Jeff

[Jay Vail]

Hey Jay

I have no idea what hara/waki is.

The guy in the red and black short's pop's the guy in the black short's elbow from a similar starting position as that shown in Meyer that Mike referenced, the best example i Know of is from Codex Wallerstein.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/87.jpg

This is a front view and described from the right side, I do not think it is the exact same technique it is very close though.


Jeff

If you have my book, the technique I have called hara/waki is illustrated on pp 76-77.

You are on the outside line. You have both hands on the enemy's wrist. His elbow is in your armpit or against your side or stomach. You lever upwards with your hands. The fulcum is his elbow. It breaks. Simple. Effective. Devastating. Nasty. Universal. A must learn technique.

[Martin Wallgren]

I cant see the video. Could someone send it to me as as an E-mail... If so, my E-mail is wallgrenmartin(at)hotmail(dot)com.

Martin

[Matt Bryant]

I immediately thought of Codex Wallerstein. There are a few plates that show this same exact concept (If not precisely the same execution). But man! hearing that *pop* made my elbow hurt just out of sympathy!

[Rod-Thornton]

The result is an overbind, which allows you to put pressue on the elbow, but generally not enough, even when you spin around (a technique in catch wrestling called a whizzer and shown in Talhoffer 1443 and 1467) to damage the joint. The technique is more frequently used as an arm control and to assist in a throw.

So, they are distinct applications and should not be confused.

Jay:
I used to be able to throw a whizzer quite a bit in my wrestling days before kids, marriage, & jobs.... Where exactly in the Talhoffer plates did you see the whizzer? Of late we've been working the Talhoffer dagger ones pretty hard. I'm using Mark Rector's translation "Medieval Combat". I ask because I'm intrigued how so many modern SPORT moves have origins in former combat ones...life Albrecht Durer's artwork showing a take down by jamming the leg at the knee and pulling up sharply below it between your own legs (with your butt as the fulcrum point) when the opponent is behind you....I've used that to counter take-downs when the grappler got behind you....works especially well for shorter stocky dudes like me. Wanted to compare the sport whizzer with the combat one you spoke of....

Thanks!

-Rod

[JeffGentry]

Hey Rod

Take a look at plate 192 in Talhoffer it is also shown in plate 220. Plate 200 show's how to break a full nelson, your move is plate 199 in Talhoffer.

IMO most throw's in Ringen are not necessarily fight ender's they are just giving you a distinct advantage to work from like Lichtenauer said "before displacing, gaurd yourself, set yourself for advantage" throwing someone is a pretty good "displacment" and having them on there back on the ground with you on top is a pretty good "gaurd" and you have a distinct advantage.


Jeff

[Rod-Thornton]

Hey Rod

Take a look at plate 192...220...200 ...your move is plate 199 in Talhoffer....

Jeff

Oh yeah! I don't know why I never noticed it before....as well as with the other ringen plates you mentioned. I've really only focused on re-doing the techniques of Talhoffer for the longsword, falchion, & dagger material...cool...thanks Jeff! -I tended to look at other manuals for the ringen and never noticed those in Tlhfr before.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Rod

Take a look at plate 192...220...200 ...your move is plate 199 in Talhoffer....

Jeff

Oh yeah! I don't know why I never noticed it before....as well as with the other ringen plates you mentioned. I've really only focused on re-doing the techniques of Talhoffer for the longsword, falchion, & dagger material...cool...thanks Jeff! -I tended to look at other manuals for the ringen and never noticed those in Tlhfr before.

Hey Rod

I have noticed alot of common "sport" wrestling grip's and movement's in Meyer, Talhoffer, CW, Fiore, Fabian Von Aureswald, Petter, they are all over, Not alway's in the illustraion though, Sometime's they are in the descriptive text, Such as "... then grasp his left hand with your left..." or " If you are wrestling with an opponent, each grasping the other, then see that both your arm's come beneath; grasp him thus by the middle..." there we have an inside one on one grip and a body lock described in the manual's.


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hey Rod

Take a look at plate 192 in Talhoffer it is also shown in plate 220. Plate 200 show's how to break a full nelson, your move is plate 199 in Talhoffer.

IMO most throw's in Ringen are not necessarily fight ender's they are just giving you a distinct advantage to work from like Lichtenauer said "before displacing, gaurd yourself, set yourself for advantage" throwing someone is a pretty good "displacment" and having them on there back on the ground with you on top is a pretty good "gaurd" and you have a distinct advantage.


Jeff

hello jeff,
I agree with that entirely, Rigeck tells us that unterhalten are what you chiefly wants to achieve in wrestling, you are using bonebreakers and murder strikes in case of emergency/need.

and when you see his 3 unterhalten they are come from a throw.
ie you throw him and then you pin him.
1) standing pin using teh arms (but they can be done kneeling)
2)kneeling onto the elbow (and using our on elbow on the throat)
3) using the leg/legs to pin. i do not really know if it is standing kneeling or even if we are both on the floor) i have stand up version that works but i am not sure it is what the text says.

phil

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

If you look at western art's and combat sport's in the modern age we have Sport fencing which is derived but far removed from any real sword art, freestyle/Greco-roman wrestling which is usualy done to pin and where controling the opponent is extremely important and boxing, we have all the basic element's to fully recreate HEMA just by putting them together with what we have in the manual's and giving them the right context.

AMA is not the only repository of martial knowledge, it is the most readily availabe though, we can and should take what we need from our own western combat sport's of course they have changed, I do believe the basic element's not in the manual's are still there for the taking.

(push's the soap box back under the bed)


Jeff