dagger attack distance -- a real life example

[Jay Vail]

Jeffrey

If the man on the left has simply set aside the adversary's weapon I might could see a single time action. However, given that he has a grip on the arm itself I have to go with Jay on this one.

Sure, I can understand that. My idea of it can work with a drawing or sliding cover, that ends in the grip proper. But if you all find it is more workable in two parts, then I respect that.

Jeff, it's not so much what is workable. From my perspective at least, it is about what the master intended.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Here is another fairly representative attack, this time a thrust from below. Note that the victim of the attack is stabbed, yet manages to grasp the attacker's forearm just as we are advised to do in the manuals, and disarm him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw

Also, note that the owner of the store where the attack took place hits the attacker with a broom handle using the wrath cut.

Note also that the attacker takes an incredible amount of punishment and does not collapse.

Think of the tunnel vision effect. "A guy 2 feet away is trying to stab me!" From that view it certainly is an instinctive reaction to go for that forearm/knife and ignore the rest. I wonder to what degree the manuals take that into account?

Regarding the broomhandle, that goes back to the unpredictability of wounds. Some people can keep fighting through what are later lethel injuries. Others go into shock from minor cuts. And you never know how the person will react to an injury a priori.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Jeff, it's not so much what is workable. From my perspective at least, it is about what the master intended.

Okay, again I would not disagree, but can we actually know exactly how he intended the kinetics to work? I would concede the grab is certainly there, not trying to deny that, but I still think that simultaneous (aka bursting) fits the text & picture. I mean the text is open to either chronology, plus I realised that the play could also be achieved from low-guard Nonetheless, you are correct to emphasise that principle of doing things as closely to what a fechtmeister portrays. If only we could work on this stuff in person, then we could compare what we each mean.

[Jason Taylor]

Those were very edifying, the second one especially. I dearly love the knife work I've done, in which the tactics are primarily dueling tactics from a hybrid of Filipino and Freestyle systems (I haven't had a chance to learn much of the Western material yet, but I'm getting there). I find again and again that dueling doesn't really work when someone just wants to destroy you. If they're content to stay at distance and play West Side Story with you, then maybe. But you can't be the one dancing if he's trying to bulldoze you with a pointy thing in his hand, you're going to have problems. When I work with the bigger guys in my study group, they can often power through my covers, and conceivably through the less-than-perfect countercuts, and nail me in the face. Realistically, they'd have some really nasty cuts to the arm, but I'd be much worse off.

Time to expand my skill set, I guess.

Jason

[Jay Vail]

Jeff, it's not so much what is workable. From my perspective at least, it is about what the master intended.

Okay, again I would not disagree, but can we actually know exactly how he intended the kinetics to work? I would concede the grab is certainly there, not trying to deny that, but I still think that simultaneous (aka bursting) fits the text & picture. I mean the text is open to either chronology, plus I realised that the play could also be achieved from low-guard Nonetheless, you are correct to emphasise that principle of doing things as closely to what a fechtmeister portrays. If only we could work on this stuff in person, then we could compare what we each mean.

Well, that's what I said. You can't know for certain what the master intended. You can only make educated guesses.

I suspect that Jaron has something like this in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfC ... ed&search=

Note the numerous simultaneous covers and stabs.

Also note the downward cover with the dagger hand in the forward grip, similar to that in Talhoffer (1467) plate 180 (left). On the vid, you will see this several times if you watch closely.

Could the Europeans have intended their knife art to resemble silat? Probably in some specifics, but not necessarily in its overall design. Again, we cannot be sure, but I suspect not.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jeff, it's not so much what is workable. From my perspective at least, it is about what the master intended.

Okay, again I would not disagree, but can we actually know exactly how he intended the kinetics to work? I would concede the grab is certainly there, not trying to deny that, but I still think that simultaneous (aka bursting) fits the text & picture. I mean the text is open to either chronology, plus I realised that the play could also be achieved from low-guard Nonetheless, you are correct to emphasise that principle of doing things as closely to what a fechtmeister portrays. If only we could work on this stuff in person, then we could compare what we each mean.

Well, that's what I said. You can't know for certain what the master intended. You can only make educated guesses.

I suspect that Jaron has something like this in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfC ... ed&search=

Note the numerous simultaneous covers and stabs.

Also note the downward cover with the dagger hand in the forward grip, similar to that in Talhoffer (1467) plate 180 (left). On the vid, you will see this several times if you watch closely.

Could the Europeans have intended their knife art to resemble silat? Probably in some specifics, but not necessarily in its overall design. Again, we cannot be sure, but I suspect not.

Jay,

In that video the Silat guy seems to do a lot of slicing. I am unaware of much of that in WMA. That said, I once did some knife sparring with a friend who is an Escrima stylist (while I used a rondel simulator) and repeatedly got sliced to virtual pieces much like in that video.

[Jay Vail]

Jeff, it's not so much what is workable. From my perspective at least, it is about what the master intended.

Okay, again I would not disagree, but can we actually know exactly how he intended the kinetics to work? I would concede the grab is certainly there, not trying to deny that, but I still think that simultaneous (aka bursting) fits the text & picture. I mean the text is open to either chronology, plus I realised that the play could also be achieved from low-guard Nonetheless, you are correct to emphasise that principle of doing things as closely to what a fechtmeister portrays. If only we could work on this stuff in person, then we could compare what we each mean.

Well, that's what I said. You can't know for certain what the master intended. You can only make educated guesses.

I suspect that Jaron has something like this in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2DtCUfC ... ed&search=

Note the numerous simultaneous covers and stabs.

Also note the downward cover with the dagger hand in the forward grip, similar to that in Talhoffer (1467) plate 180 (left). On the vid, you will see this several times if you watch closely.

Could the Europeans have intended their knife art to resemble silat? Probably in some specifics, but not necessarily in its overall design. Again, we cannot be sure, but I suspect not.

Jay,

In that video the Silat guy seems to do a lot of slicing. I am unaware of much of that in WMA. That said, I once did some knife sparring with a friend who is an Escrima stylist (while I used a rondel simulator) and repeatedly got sliced to virtual pieces much like in that video.

Re slicing, yes, it seems that stabbing more than slicing was the order of he day. But slicing was not unknown. Paulus Kal advises us to do it with the dagger, as does Talfhoffer (see 1467 plate 172: "As the fighter second from the left stabs from above, his oppponent counters by throwing out his left arm to catch the stab and then strikes of *slashes* with his own dagger.")

I posted the silat vid because there you can see simultaneous covers and stabs, which I had thought was one of your concerns -- or did I mix you up with someone else? I forget.

As I also pointed out, there are some techniques very similar to those in Talhoffer. If you look closely at the Asian systems, you can see the substantial overlap that occurs between them and the Medieval Western methods.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Cool video, thanks for linking that, JV.

I think those Silat guys have a lot useful stuff to offer with their art.

Yes, they do like to do simultaneuous cover & strike.

Incidentally, I think that some form of Silat was the base for the fight-choreography in a decent action film called The Hunted (2003):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0269347/

Anyway, surely off-topic now, sorry.

JH

[Jay Vail]

That said, I once did some knife sparring with a friend who is an Escrima stylist (while I used a rondel simulator) and repeatedly got sliced to virtual pieces much like in that video.

Then you spent too much time within distance! Get in and then get out! Also, remember, some rondels had edges.

Anyway, don't take it too hard. Knife sparring has little to do with reality.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Cool video, thanks for linking that, JV.

I think those Silat guys have a lot useful stuff to offer with their art.

Yes, they do like to do simultaneuous cover & strike.

Incidentally, I think that some form of Silat was the base for the fight-choreography in a decent action film called The Hunted (2003):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0269347/

Anyway, surely off-topic now, sorry.

JH

I would rate The Hunted very highly for the realism of its martial arts sequences, even it is is a different system. Maybe someday a film will show WMA of that quality......

[david welch]

Anyway, don't take it too hard. Knife sparring has little to do with reality.

As ugly as this sounds, the best knife drill I have ever done is to stand still with your eyes closed and your knife sheathed/in your pocket/gun in holster. The drill starts when the attacker/attackers attack you. Your job is to stop them from drilling you, get your knife/gun out, and end the attack. If done with head protecting like a FIST helmet and at full contact, it probably is as close to an actual knife attack as you can get. You can move it around and try it next to a wall, in a corner, standing between a car and an open door, in a closet, etc.

All in all, this drill sucks worse than any other I have tried. Especially if there are two of them and one takes you to the ground with the initial attack. It certainly makes you realize you never want to be in a knife fight.

The cool thing is, so much of my self self defense work centers around in fight weapons access. And the stuff in the manuals works just as well for getting your gun out as it does for for getting out a rondel. I mean, look in Jeffrey Hull's Talhoffer pdf page 148,158,159,167,203 and 289 for just the most obvious examples. That is nothing but "modern" combatatives weapons theory, control the limb closest to your weapon. Once he had the other guys arm tied up like on page 289, he could draw his dagger and finish him off with little trouble.

Just some thoughts.

[Jay Vail]

Anyway, don't take it too hard. Knife sparring has little to do with reality.

As ugly as this sounds, the best knife drill I have ever done is to stand still with your eyes closed and your knife sheathed/in your pocket/gun in holster. The drill starts when the attacker/attackers attack you. Your job is to stop them from drilling you, get your knife/gun out, and end the attack. If done with head protecting like a FIST helmet and at full contact, it probably is as close to an actual knife attack as you can get. You can move it around and try it next to a wall, in a corner, standing between a car and an open door, in a closet, etc.

All in all, this drill sucks worse than any other I have tried. Especially if there are two of them and one takes you to the ground with the initial attack. It certainly makes you realize you never want to be in a knife fight.

The cool thing is, so much of my self self defense work centers around in fight weapons access. And the stuff in the manuals works just as well for getting your gun out as it does for for getting out a rondel. I mean, look in Jeffrey Hull's Talhoffer pdf page 148,158,159,167,203 and 289 for just the most obvious examples. That is nothing but "modern" combatatives weapons theory, control the limb closest to your weapon. Once he had the other guys arm tied up like on page 289, he could draw his dagger and finish him off with little trouble.

Just some thoughts.

Yeh, I have done that drill. It is a good drill. It really makes you realize how vulnerable you are and is great in instilling humility, especially when you realize that many if not most knife attacks happen in just that way: close up and within distance. (Try it lying down as if in bed and the bad guy is a burglar who wakes you up!)

Yeh, going to ground when you don't have the knife is really really bad.

As for modern combatives weapons theory, the best stuff I've seen comes from corrections officers, and their material, at least in my state, is grounded on principles and techniques identical to those found in the manuals. There is probably a reason for that: the manuals are the true stuff.

[Jaron Bernstein]

We are fortunate to have a corrections officer in our study group so we do a decent amount of the rondel training as you describe.

[Jay Vail]

Have a look at this one. Note how violent and strong the attack is, and how the attacker uses multiple strikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyiZLvHC2rM

[Jay Vail]

http://www.comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=3826