RMA for MMA

[Sripol Asanasavest]

It would really be great for me to see that kind of style. I havent seen one who is fighting the RMA style to another opponent.

It would be very interesting to see...yes! I mean back in the old days, in Siam, when they were testing their invinsibility of their institution, or boxing camp as they called it now a day, and boxing style against other institutions, they would organize fighting bouts between different boxers and really went at it with each others. The winners usually were the ones still alive! How it would be like to see something like that? They really thought of just about everything on how to go about in the most efficient, destructive, and lethal ways.

I know the martial art they practice in Russia also looks like it could really hurt somebody. I forgot the name, though... All I know....they really go at it with each other when they fight and practice. Their is always blood, bruises and broken bones, but I don't think anybody dies, though!

[Joshua Cook]

Sripol, the Russian Style you are thinking about is Sambo, and is based off of indigenous Russian wrestling styles and few other martial arts styles as well.

And yes, men have died practicing Sambo, normally from a blood-choke that is held too long.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Sambo! That's what it is! That gives me the chill and make my hair stands...!

[Jeff Hansen]

I copied this from an old thread on ringen and MMA. This was my opinion just after taking a self defence class out of curiosity(free) from the pro fighter who eventually became my MMA trainer for two years and a couple of amateur fights.

"The basic concept of the fight is the same, that is, any type of attack is allowed and anything flashy but ineffective is quickly weeded out. However, because of the difference of intent it's still apples and oranges.
To illustrate, I'll go through the defence against a basic roundhouse/barfight punch:
The start can be the same in any martial art I've ever seen or heard of- void, get your hands up and block, while his arm's extended grab the wrist. Now, here is where the difference in intent shows up. the MMA guy teaches to go for an arm lock, from which there are a number of options , the most obvious and easiest of which is to lean back and pivot to stess the shoulder and IF (that is the difference right there) you really want to hurt them, you can kick your feet out and break the shoulder. A fairly simple and effective technique.
However, looking at it from a Renn. MA point of view, I don't have to achieve a lock to neutralize my opponent for a period of time to apply graduated pressure or switch to a better hold to force a submission or to decide whether to go further and break the shoulder. To me, everything after he grabs the wrist is a waste of time and energy. The arm is extended... strike the elbow and break it! That's not to say I don't have the utmost respect for MMA, but as I said, the intent is different. Ultimate fighting is a sport. The intent is to win through submission or KO. This is achieved by hurting people, and injuries happen, but they're not the goal. Ringen is war. The intent is to crush, maim, and kill. The whole point is to cause injuries. Apples and oranges. "

This is still my opinion, and why I don't think ringen is suited to MMA. Certainly there are things from ringen that could be applied in the ring/cage, but if you want to be successful in MMA train primarily in MMA. Training primarily ringen; you will either lose alot because most of your techniques are too dangerous, or you will seriously injure all of your opponents until you either can't get anyone to fight you, or someone who knows your reputation comes in and does unto you before you can do unto them. Either way you would have a short and ugly MMA career.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

We also have something like that in Muay Thai.... Except I think they quickly grab someone's arm and throw them on the ground, pinning the opponent down by the arm by twisting it and quickly stomp down on the elbow joint before they react while at the same time pulling the arm up in the opposite direction of which it is supposed to bend; and thus, completely breaking it half. And they could finish him off by stomping on the back of the neck at the base of the skull...

[Joshua Cook]

Jeff, what other advice would you offer on someone wanting to pursue amateur MMA? Obviously, I am still going to use some Ringen, but I think from what you've told me that it will probably somewhat limited.

[Gene Tausk]

We also have something like that in Muay Thai.... Except I think they quickly grab someone's arm and throw them on the ground, pinning the opponent down by the arm by twisting it and quickly stomp down on the elbow joint before they react while at the same time pulling the arm up in the opposite direction of which it is supposed to bend; and thus, completely breaking it half. And they could finish him off by stomping on the back of the neck at the base of the skull...

Sripol, you seem to be on this forum purely to act as a "back the Muay Thai of my homeboys" troll. It is getting old.

No one is denying Muay Thai is an effective fighting art. But, it is a sport and it is rule-based. It is not comparable to the killing arts of the Medieval and Renaissance periods of Europe. Jeff's example earlier on this thread explains why.

If this is going to degenerate into a "Muay Thai v Everything Else" thread, then it will be locked.

[Alex Bourdas]

Ringen is war. The intent is to crush, maim, and kill. The whole point is to cause injuries. Apples and oranges. "

This is still my opinion, and why I don't think ringen is suited to MMA. Certainly there are things from ringen that could be applied in the ring/cage, but if you want to be successful in MMA train primarily in MMA. Training primarily ringen; you will either lose alot because most of your techniques are too dangerous, or you will seriously injure all of your opponents until you either can't get anyone to fight you, or someone who knows your reputation comes in and does unto you before you can do unto them. Either way you would have a short and ugly MMA career.

Hey,
I'm new to these forums, but I wanted to ask about this. Europe has had a long history of sport wrestling. Ringen is not automatically used for war. Kampfringen is.
I'm not sure how much evidence we have of what techniques were considered sport techniques, but I think that most medieval wrestlers would have had their exposure to wrestling as a sport first, as this is something that can be safely practiced, and that later, they would be tought some of the murder-strikes and forbidden techniques that Ringeck talks about for example.
If you take all the murder-strikes and breaking techniques etc. away then you'll have a very good approximation of what sport wrestling looked like.
Most of the murder-strikes can be used unchanged. Ringeck's 2nd (a knee to the groin) can easily be changed to a knee to the solar plexus, but other than that, I don't see any major problems.
Then you look at a breaking technique, and see if it can be used as a submission. Any submission lock can be used to break bones if done hard enough. I don't think using an argument that Ringen techniques break stuff is valid here. Just apply pressure a bit more slowly and with a bit less force, and you're no longer breaking the arm.

[Steven Ott]

I agree. There is no such thing as a hand-to-hand martial art that is battlefield only. You have control. It's not a bullet that can only fly at one speed. Yes ringen has lethal options but they are far from the only options. Anyone who practices martial arts from this perspective would have to kill anyone they fought with. Examing the techniques in the manuals one sees alot of non-lethal stuff. Ringen, in my opinion is somewhat represented in MMA through wrestling, which is a derivitive of wrestling. Killing is not a skill, in and of itself. In fact, most of the people who kill are untrained. Ringen does train to kill but clearly also to control.

[Gene Tausk]

I agree. There is no such thing as a hand-to-hand martial art that is battlefield only. You have control. It's not a bullet that can only fly at one speed. Yes ringen has lethal options but they are far from the only options. Anyone who practices martial arts from this perspective would have to kill anyone they fought with. Examing the techniques in the manuals one sees alot of non-lethal stuff. Ringen, in my opinion is somewhat represented in MMA through wrestling, which is a derivitive of wrestling. Killing is not a skill, in and of itself. In fact, most of the people who kill are untrained. Ringen does train to kill but clearly also to control.

Stephen - agree.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

Very nice point there Steven.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Well, I think if you are going to fight, you might as well beat the crap out of them.... It's like a box of chocolate when you piss people off.... You never know what you're gunna get. Pissing people off like that, especially thugs and violent criminals, is like playing with the hornet nest. If you think you're life is in danger, then go all the way. Other than that, fighting is a bad idea.... You should try to avoid it at all cost and learn ways to avoid it. You don't go into a dark alley in a bad part of Brooklyn, do you? What if they person is stronger and better? What if they pull out a gun or call their friends? ...Or if they go after your family? ... or killing innocent bystanders?

[Gene Tausk]

Well, I think if you are going to fight, you might as well beat the crap out of them.... It's like a box of chocolate when you piss people off.... You never know what you're gunna get. Pissing people off like that, especially thugs and violent criminals, is like playing with the hornet nest. If you think you're life is in danger, then go all the way.

I don't know if you live in the States, but with your attitude, I expect that you would find yourself in front of a jury of 12 people really fast. Be sure and put the "National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys" on your speed dial.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I'm not talking about the United States.... But if you were in the U.S., you shouldn't start a fight if you could avoid it. I know that part! I think everybody knows that.... But similar rules are applied, just not the laws. It's a fact that people don't like it when you really piss them off...especially the thugs and violent criminals.... You shouldn't get yourself into a fight, or start wars, unless you have to. Even if you have to fight, it's still bad karma! You also shouldn't get yourself into a loosing battle lets say if you are surrounded, or if you don't know anyone there because you might loose. If you really piss people off, they might kill you. It's bad karma.

I'm just saying....that if your life is in danger, you don't mess around. You can warn them, but if they are going to kill you, then you really have no choice.

[Alex Bourdas]

The thread is about the application of ringen to MMA. As in asking the question, is ringen useful for fighting in a cage/octagon/ring etc. with rules?
Self defence against someone trying to kill you and fighting against a willing opponent wearing gloves and a gumshield and protected by rules is not the same thing.