Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

[Gareth Thomas]

Sory My bad, I forgot to read that part, I prefer to use my established nick name (Noinden) but have now changed to this ..... Again sorry

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Gareth,

Nice to hear from you. I really enjoyed Geoff's seminar.

As you say it is not "authentic" medieval unarmed combat, but is rather adapted from it. It is improved even. His knife disarms are much safer (you get the hell out of the way of the sharp thing) as are his blunt instruments methods.

OK, I believe there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, modern military CQB in the Fairbairn/Applegate tradition is adapted primarily from Jujutsu. This is not to say that there aren't similarities between Koryu Jujutsu and Medieval martial arts but the truth is the truth. There is no evidence whatsoever that the primary influence on the FAS system is western in origin and every chance that it is based on Judo/Jujutsu atemi.

As for the knife work being improved, I strongly and wholeheartedly disagree. Folks, Geoff teaches you to half inquatarta away from a blow and strike to the knife arm. This is completely different to the Applegate method some of which looks like it could have come straight out of Talhoffer.

The medieval defences do not generally have you moving to a position that keeps you inside of the knife unless the opponent is delivering a backhand. The key to the medieval, the Japanese and even the Filipino counter knife I have studied is to get to the outside line of the blow. If you get to the outside line of the blow then the attacker is forced to reorient himself dramatically to continue the attack. This buys you time to try and restrain the knife or counterattack. If you move inside the arc of the weapon, the attacker can not only keep pumping the knife at you but he can also shield it with his off hand. I believe that inside the arc of a knife attack is a bad place to be.

As for the axe kick working against a plate armoured opponent, I would have to say that the armour would likely provide a fair bit of deflective protection. Shane? Matt?

The axe hand to the neck/head area would actually cause quite a bit of jarring. Having been hit by this type of blow in the head (and once accidentally in the neck) in a reasonably authentic helmet and felt the effects, they would have to be worse if you were being hit by someone wearing a maille or plate gauntlet.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

Good points on the outside line. Even some knife defenses that attack the knife wielders off hand go to the outside lines to prevent the knife from coming into play (Marozzo has some good examples of this).
And yes, kicks can be generally expected to not cause pain or injury to a plate armoured opponent, though they have their uses. Many articulated joints even prevent hyperextension. A method I sometimes use (but you have to be careful) to demonstrate some of the protective abilities of plate armour, is to put a breastplate on a novice, and deliver a forceful thrusting front kick to it. It knocks them back a meter or two, but hardly pushes a breath from them.

[Mark Horobin]

Using kicks in armoured combat is generally more about stopping the other person short or shifting them back simply because you can't punch through most armour enough to damage the person inside. Any kick that shunts someone a few steps away or pins a foot will give you an advantadge.

An axe kick, (depending on how executed) would require you to not be wearing much armour, so its unlikely you would be performing one against someone in full plate unless you were looking for trouble. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

From what I have read (very little in comparison to some) and participated in a 'lot' of different styles only really lend themselves to quick kicks to legs when closing or a good solid push to the chest/shield in an effort to overbalance your opponent. The jumping, twisting, back hook to the head, apart from being difficult to do, would just leave you too open to being slain in a single stroke.

[Gareth Thomas]

Bandia duit

SNIP


(QUOTE)
OK, I believe there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, modern military CQB in the Fairbairn/Applegate tradition is adapted primarily from Jujutsu. This is not to say that there aren't similarities between Koryu Jujutsu and Medieval martial arts but the truth is the truth. There is no evidence whatsoever that the primary influence on the FAS system is western in origin and every chance that it is based on Judo/Jujutsu atemi.
(/Quote)

Perhaps, though Geoff can demonstrate that eastern martial arts (and CQB is not a martial art but lets not get into that one) can be traced back to the styles Alexander the great brought with him to India (and from there to China and from there to Japan etc) I don’t completely hold that idea, but it at least stimulates the train of thought…..

Geoffs methods have "evolved" since Fairburn/Applegate/Sykes et al. Put it together in WW2. So many of the eastern influences have gone. His biggest gripe is the "cross block" martial artists are taught for knife blocks … it is fine if one is wearing armour, if one is not (as a most modern soldiers (flack jackets do not count) and civilians) it is dangerous as hell (flexor muscles being cut = lower arm virtually useless). It think this is the difference, CQB is an adaptive thing for today, while some (not all) martial arts stay with a tradition that might have worked (i.e. the punches in Karate are NOT full power) and the side kicks worked when one was wearing razor edged sandals (OUCH) but with shoes/boots are not the best option). Another bad example taught by SOME self defence "exponents" is how to get out of a full nelson … the traditional "dropping down" can lead to bad neck injuries. Ok enough of my preaching. I am hooked on CQB I admit it. Plus it IS what some call gutter fighting (and it works <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Yes I am biased but that is because his methods have saved my arse on a couple of occasions while some martial arts I learned a while back earned me some scars.

CQB has it’s place as does every eastern art (and western art for that matter). I’m getting older and my fitness fluctuates (teaching labs eats into my gym/exercise time) along with my poor co-ordination. CQB is my modern choose for keeping me in one piece. NOW if some one lets me wear and use my small two-hander from the Raven Armour in the UK …. Then I will re-evaluate that.

(Quote)
As for the knife work being improved, I strongly and wholeheartedly disagree. Folks, Geoff teaches you to half inquatarta away from a blow and strike to the knife arm. This is completely different to the Applegate method some of which looks like it could have come straight out of Talhoffer.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I know his method works. The chop to the radial nerve that he teaches as the first thing to do works, if that fails the disarm and kick to the knee is just as effective (if brutal, but anyone who comes at me with a knife is asking for that). I’ve used it recently when our research lab had some "visitors" (some druggies looking for stuff to make Meth).

It makes sense to do it the way taught to me. Given we train with real knifes a lot of the time one tends to learn fast. If you move away from the knife and screw up you can get clipped quite badly (lets just say I learned this the hard way in class). With the evasion (sidestep) you go inside the blow AND forward thus reducing the power of the stike. But we are arguing (ok discussing) from different POVs here.

SNIP (just to save band width and to stop repetitiveness from me)



As for the axe kick working against a plate armoured opponent, I would have to say that the armour would likely provide a fair bit of deflective protection. Shane? Matt?


Depends on how you get it. I’ve not tried it (or the other kicks either) to be honest IF I was facing someone in armour (say plate) I’d be looking for a weapon. OR be in a re-enactment event and NOT trying to ruin their knee.

The axe hand to the neck/head area would actually cause quite a bit of jarring. Having been hit by this type of blow in the head (and once accidentally in the neck) in a reasonably authentic helmet and felt the effects, they would have to be worse if you were being hit by someone wearing a maille or plate gauntlet.

Jarring yes BUT a knife edge (one of the entry strikes along with the elbow strike and palm strike) is what I was talking about and is more likely to break my hand than hurt someone. NOW if I got inside a guard then one of the combo’s (Deadly shifty, elbow knee to the groin (assuming that is not covered) etc) is more likely) or if I was behind them after evasion (kick to the back of the knee then a stomp to the ankle and or head. Neck) would be good.

But we are into the realms of "fantasy" here as CQC/CQB is for the modern person and adapted to that, and I guess one could use aspects for rebuilding/reviving the older ways.

I found the pugile stick stuff (bayonet practice) reminded me of spear work quite a bit <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> OH and FYI this is just the phase one stuff which is:
(a) attack (applications and contingencies)
(b) Counter attack (to combat all unarmed attack situations
(c) Counters to holds and counter attack
(d) Edged and short weapon disarming
(e) Long bludgeon/edged disarms

Phase two has a lot more and pahse three (I am told) is even more hard core!

Anyhow I best head off. I look forward to more discussions <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

The cross block was advocated by many of the medieval masters for use out of armour, as it can quickly and fluidly progress to other techniques. So apparently it worked fine for them.
I think the context of its effectiveness has changed though. It's far better for someone trying to drive a footlong blade into your heart than for the 3 inch blade of a mugger who'll just slice your forearms. And it's one of those techniques really meant for immediate follow up rather than a stand-alone block.
As for getting jarred from a strike to the helm, I think general statements are impossible. I've worn several reasonably authentic helmets that you'd be hard pressed to notice anything short of a sound pommel strike. But, they were made for me, and had the fitting and padding worked to fit me well.
I don't personally advocate much of this for modern street defense. I don't advocate any traditional art for it, which this, even though it wasn't "traditional" back when it was used, in the sense that it still changed with the times, is relegated to that place in our culture now, in the sense we are keeping it as it was, and not making things up.
No offense intended to those that do. I do see it, from my personal experience, as superb for modern infantry combat though. Anyway, I don't think it should be argued for its similarities, differences, or effectiveness compared to anything now. The context has changed somewhat being hundreds of years removed.
I'm having a hard time finding what any of what you're talking about now has anything to do with our ancient subject.

[Shane Smith]

Much depends on the armour being faced. My associate Matt Anderson has a transitional coat of plate and I have landed a good front thrust kick right to his mid-section in armoured free-play.It was a wind -taker and show stopper even through the coat of plate,maille and gambesson. In the sources I have studied,the most common armoured kicks are to the lower openings and the legs(especially the lead knee). As for the axe kick,I think it poses more of a danger to the guy performing the kick than it does the receiver on the street.Indeed, I would say that in my opinion, almost any kick above the mid-section is a grave error when it counts.The Western source-texts seem to reflect this same line of thinking. A high kick is great if it lands but it's VERY dangerous and unstable if it doesn't.In armour, stability is crucial.

[Shane Smith]

Good point about the hand strikes to the head Stu. We too have observed that locally.It does not appear in any armoured manuals that I can recall,but even an open-hand slap to the side of the bascinet will both move your opponent and stun him. The weight of the vambrace and gauntlet seem to really add authority when combined with efficient movement to strike.

[Stuart McDermid]

Great post Casper,

The cross block isn't a bad technique it is just done poorly by most people. If you don't simultaneously move to the outside line then you get a force on force block that allows the type of lower arm cuts Gareth suggests. A cross blox is not best done with both arms extended to the same degree either. If facing a right handed attack, you move to your left and extend your right arm a little more than your left. Rather than stopping the initial attack dead at first contact, this bounces the attack up and off the arm. The second hand is there to grab or just to protect against any mistiming of the attack.

The best methods of knife defence I have seen are all found in Medieval sources.

This is coming from a Filipino martial arts instructor who has an instructor who fights out of and uses a collapsed X block position. The Filipino martial arts are some of the most knife focused in the world and my instructor has abandoned traditional Filo knife blocks for the use of a folded arms/ X block method.

The medieval method uses master arm parries (Like Applegate), 2 on 1 grabs (like the WWII or modern methods such as the STAB or) and X blocks like traditional Jujutsu. Not once AFAIK even in the unarmoured method is an evasion and counterstrike shown.

I think this has very little to do with the evolving of weapons and methods and everything to do with the importance of protecting your centreline. You only get one chance in a knifefight and people both over and underestimate the amount of damage a knife will do. If it gets you in the centreline, you are in trouble. If it gets you somewhere off the centreline then your chance of survival goes up as your chance of controlling the knife or successfully counterattack goes up.
Cheers,
Stu.

[philippewillaume]

Hello shane

I think it depends of the armour/helmet. But I am not an expert on bacinet.

From my experience it depend of the head neck organization
I have now have an armet wrapper 1440-1450 type(I used to have a bevor sallet before). I use to joust and I got lances in the gob or have been smacked around the head on foot
And I find that it is not really a problem
That being said due to horse riding and the rocking motion that goes with hit (and the visor moving side effect now I see you now I don&amp;#8217;t. My helmets are usually jammed on my head by paddings (so that nothings move or more so that everything moves together) and usually you have the neck protection that gives stability to the whole thing.

But I have been able to throw (by accident) a partner just by slapping him behind the head. He was wearing with an armet and locking wrapper (the wrapper is part of the helmet and is brought down like a visor).
We repeated that on him and me and it had much more effect on him than on me.
Since he is rinding as well we has similar type padding.
The only difference we have been able to notice was that my wrapper (Italian 1450 ish) prevents may head to go down past a certain angle.
So my balance does not seems to be affected that much (the best result was a step forward)
I do not know if it was the fact that my wrapper is caught under the pauldrons, my colleague had small pauldrons (or large spaulders).
We have the same amount of head mobility and downward vision.
Any experience like that with basinet and a metallic neck protection