Goliath Plate #232

[Bart Walczak]

I meant that since we're talking of the European wrestling, we should explain it in the European context and look for European sources first, instead of looking for analogies from the Eastern MA.

The probability of mistake is just lower <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[david welch]

Like this?

"In 1520 there is an account of a tournament between the Cornish Wrestlers of Henry VIII of England and the Breton wrestlers of Francis I King of France being held at Calais in France. The Cornish wrestlers won the day but king HenryVIII was thrown with a flying mare during a challenge match with the French King." <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you mean. One of my projects right now is going over sources on the internet on European wrestleing and trying to match moves( or better, fouls like cross collar chokeing in cornish wrestleing. Fouls mean they knew about it, they knew it was effective or nobody would have been doing it, and they made rules against it because it was too dangerous to do for "sport") to plates. There really is a wealth of info on early Eurpoean "combat sports" that needs to be looked into and added to the understanding of unarmed combat. But I also think it would be a mistake to completely discount any similarities between eastern and western fighting. Someone told me once that if you look at several arts, you will notice certain techniques appear in all of them, and there is a REASON those techniques are in all of them. They work.

[Guest]

IMHO the guy on the right is throwing the guy on the left by shifting his weight one direction then sweeping his foot out from under him. Simple but effective. If he is not doing a sweep, then his foot is being used to trip the guy. Notice how one arm is lifted while the other is being pushed down. That will throw you off balance, then the foot will finish it off. But then again I could be way off.

[Gene Tausk]

Respectfully disagree. As long as the person is trying to explain the technique, any relevant analysis is fine. Whether this analysis comes from Asian sources, European sources, or from Mars, as long as it makes sense and helps to understand what the figure is doing in the illustration, it is useful and therefore acceptable.

One of the goals of ARMA is to demonstrate the historically effective fighting techniques existed in Europe just as in Asia, so if it worked in Asia and was developed in Asia, it probobly had a counterpart in Europe. Therefore, using Asian analogies is useful IMO.

Besides, European terminology can be just as confusing. In reviewing the Goliath illustration again, I realized that Ted seemed to be setting Bill up for a throw common in sambo: looks like a zadnjaja podsechka to me. Ted is moving Bill into position through the use of a levaja dvizhenija and has released his hold on the kurtka to use the ruki for the poslednij brosok, imena zadnjaja podsechka.

Ponimajete, tovarichsh? Kak zhal...

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


---------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene

[Jay Vail]

Doubt it's a foot sweep here. Left had his weight on his left leg, the one that would be swept. You don't sweep the foot which has the weight on it. That's like hitting a tree. You sweep the foot which has the lesser weight on it.

[Bart Walczak]

There, you made me do it <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" />

Von Danzig manuscript. Master Ott's wrestling, 101 r:

"Aber ein ringen auß den ersten fassen

Item heb ym auf den lincken armen mit der
rechten hant / vnd greif Im mit der
lincken unden an seinen elpogen / vnd
zeuch do mit zu dir / vnd mit dein rech-
ten stoß Im den armen oben von dir / vnd
spring mit deinem lincken fueß hinder
seinen rechten / vnd würf In auß den
fueß vber dein linkß pain"

"One more wresling from the first hold

Item, lift him by the left arm with your right hand, and grasp him with your left [from] below on his elbow, and pull towards you, and with the right thrust his arm from you upwards, and jump with your left foot behind his right and throw him from the foot over your left leg."

The picture shows it in the mirror, ie. switch left and right.

See? It's simplier this way. We avoid useless speculations on leg sweeps etc.

My Christimas gift for you all <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Erich Wagner]

Actually, if you look at the feet of both participants, they all cast shadows that make it clear they are firmly in contact with the ground; except for the guy on the left's left foot. Perhaps the guy on the right is executing his throw while the guy on the left is stepping. I subtle point to be sure but that kind of timing makes for a much easier/effective throw.

[Casper Bradak]

Terminology issues......
I do believe one of our ultimate goals is to end up using european terminology for the techniques, but until we find the surviving terminology for the terms, how about we at least translate them into our native languages?
I know there is a wealth of surviving terminology in the fechtbuchs for techniques and strikes, but not for everything.
For instance side, front, round, and thrusting sweep kicks are clearly illustrated but no terms survive, that I've seen, to differentiate them, but it's easy enough to say in english instead of japanese. Sorry I've gone off on a tangent....

[Guest]

That is what made me wonder if it was a sweep or even the guy one the right using his foot as a leverage point to trip the guy on the left. In effect pushing him over his leg. Sorry I can't explain better.

[Jay Vail]

Item, lift him by the left arm with your right hand, and grasp him with your left [from] below on his elbow, and pull towards you, and with the right thrust his arm from you upwards, and jump with your left foot behind his right and throw him from the foot over your left leg."

Excellent. This describes a taiotoshi variation.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

I'd just like to say that I really enjoyed this thread. We should do more stuff like this. Pick a plate, post your interpretation, and then lets talk about it. Sounds like fun to me.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

Stu-

I agree, but Bart's post with the actual technique was both helpful and problematic-- helpful, because now we get it, problematic, because it ended the discussion. I think that there should be a 5 post minimum before the textbook answer can be posted, for the sake of furthering conversation.

Jake

[Bart Walczak]

Jake,

LOL <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

We can move to the more controversial subjects now.

Merry Christmas everyone. (No more spelling errors this time) <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />