NEW Wallerstein/Vadi article online

[Eric Dougherty]

I can't say I've ever seen a piece of historical art work detailing a battle where there are bare chested guys running around (I know you're not saying exactly this). Everybody has at least some form of tunic on.

Unless of course your fighting against some Germanic or Celtic barbarian who does fight without their shirt, or in extreme cases, any clothes at all. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Casper, <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

You wrote: "I think that's very understandable given the nature of the world and culture these arts were used in. Slicing with knives is next to useless in combat, or even vs. clothes. It's best left to summertime streetfighting. There's no time for goofing off in war. It's done quite often in modern street knife fighting, with short blades and no battle gear, but you won't see that getting people anywhere in the winter time or on a battlefield, despite combat knives sharp edges."

I don't know. I have done some knife (and anti-knife) training. One memorable exercise involved both of us wearing sweatshirts and being armed with purple magic markers (in lieu of blades). It wasn't pretty, even if most the attacks were "nipping" cuts thrown at a distance. That said, if we had been in armor that would nullify those little nipping cuts and required full scale committed stabs...

Casper wrote: " And we all know you can safely grip sharp blades."

How sharp? I may be wrong here (please let me know if so) but the edge geometry on a sword (except for the last hand at tip) wasn't supposed to be as "razor" sharp as your kitchen knives, for a variety of reasons. Does that make a difference? I don't know, not having done any halfswording with anything but my waster.

Jaron
Columbus-ARMA

[Casper Bradak]

"I don't know. I have done some knife (and anti-knife) training. One memorable exercise involved both of us wearing sweatshirts and being armed with purple magic markers (in lieu of blades). It wasn't pretty, even if most the attacks were "nipping" cuts thrown at a distance. That said, if we had been in armor that would nullify those little nipping cuts and required full scale committed stabs..."

I guess that supports my statements.

"How sharp? I may be wrong here (please let me know if so) but the edge geometry on a sword (except for the last hand at tip) wasn't supposed to be as "razor" sharp as your kitchen knives, for a variety of reasons. Does that make a difference? I don't know, not having done any halfswording with anything but my waster."

Of course the duller it is the easier it is (at least psychologically) because you can be more careless, but hasn't made much of a difference in my experience.
How sharp the sword was and where it was sharp really depends on its blade geometry (blade form and intended use)and it's hard to make any blanket statements, Also personal preference on the "where" bit. Most swords designed to be used at all for cutting were kept, to quote Ewart Oakshotte, razor sharp, or kitchen knife sharp. The razor sharp comment is obviously exageration, but you get the point, and I'd take his word over anyone's for the kitchen knife sharp one.
As far as I can recall the only bit of advice I've read about a sword being sharpened only near the point was from Master Vadi, and in that case he wasn't talking about normal swords, but his specialized estoc can opener thingy, of a sword like shape, for fighting vs, armour. If you do that with a normal sword, you lose some versatility and slicing ability.

[Jay Vail]

Snap cuts and slices are used either by experience people who are unwilling to commit and who intend to wear the victim down or by inexperienced people who haven't the stomach to drive the blade home.

When you study actual knife fatalities, either modern or from the middle ages, you find that virtually all of them are from straight stabs, that is puncture wounds. It is rare that a slashing acting is used, unless it is a slice to the neck. The instinctive reaction of any knifer, particularly the untrained ones, is to go for that powerful committed stab.

[Jake_Norwood]

While in Vienna I saw several longswords that where the blade became a rectangular-cross-section handle at the major half-swording points. Fascinating.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

Yes, I agree, that's partly what I've been getting at. I've seen some examinations of people killed by knives. Some actually had some nasty slice wounds, though none were lethal or physically debilitating. (they were lightly or nclothed where they were sliced) They died from the thrusts.

Jake, that's really interesting. How common do you think those features were? Do you think they were added for 1/2 swording? When were they from? I don't suppose you got any pictures. Were they sort of extra ricassos? What were the blade types? Heh sorry for all the questions.

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm afraid I don't have any pictures, but there were several such blades in the collection. I'm positive that they were for half-swording. These weren't so much extra ricassos as bastard swords with two 6-inch segments of "estoc" cross-section at about 10 inches from the hilt and again 10 inches from the tip. There were a few blade types, but they were all clearly thrusting swords. They really came accross an an unholy union of estoc and bastard sword.

Jake

[Jared L. Cass]

"I don't know. I have done some knife (and anti-knife) training. One memorable exercise involved both of us wearing sweatshirts and being armed with purple magic markers (in lieu of blades). It wasn't pretty, even if most the attacks were "nipping" cuts thrown at a distance. That said, if we had been in armor that would nullify those little nipping cuts and required full scale committed stabs..."

I don't really have too much more to add other than to again get a knife, some clothing, and cut away. You don't need chainmail or anything, to stop the effectivness of a cut, just clothes. There's nothing like proving something to oneself. And, I think you'll see that those sort of "nipping" cuts won't do much of anything. A knife against clothing isn't a magic marker...though marker fights are a whole lot of fun!

"How sharp? I may be wrong here (please let me know if so) but the edge geometry on a sword (except for the last hand at tip) wasn't supposed to be as "razor" sharp as your kitchen knives, for a variety of reasons. Does that make a difference? I don't know, not having done any halfswording with anything but my waster."

Casper said it all when he said the duller the easier. But that's still not much to worry about once you stop the momentum of a swing, slice, stab, whatever.

It's there that I believe most people get confused when they see blade grabs in the manuals. Be it with a knife, or against the opponents sword blade, or even half-swording. It's not a situation of grabbing hold of the blade as it's moving toward you. Befor the grabs can be done safely, all or most of the kenitic energy from the opposing weapon needs to be stopped or halted somehow. Like mentioned in my previous post: grabbing the wrist. Some other ways of stopping the cutting power: moving into the attack befor it's reached full speed, or aiming a strike to the opponents arm or pectoral (damaging the arm or disrupting the action of the muscle). All will accomplish the goal of slowing down the weapon so it can be grabbed. It's that, and the myth of the lightsaber knife blade/sword blade (the slightest touch of the edge will instantly shear thorough clothing, skin, muscle, bone) where the confusion/disbelief is, IMO .

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jared L. Cass]

"As far as I can recall the only bit of advice I've read about a sword being sharpened only near the point was from Master Vadi, and in that case he wasn't talking about normal swords, but his specialized estoc can opener thingy, of a sword like shape, for fighting vs, armour. If you do that with a normal sword, you lose some versatility and slicing ability. "

My fault for adding to the confussion. The rapier/falchion bit was in reguards to the width of the blades and the intended purpose for both. One can cut to a small degree of effectivness and still be "razor sharp"...the other is designed to be a top notch cutter. Thus the difference in the widths of the blades and how that relates to my own experience of experimenting with blade grabs on both narrow and wide bladed knives.

Hope that clears that up.

It is awfully cool to learn of the differences of the where and why in sharpening strategies in reguards to swords, though <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[TimSheetz]

Hi All,

As far as cutting and slashing with a knife...
I think the most important thing is that not all knives are equal. The smaller the knife the more imperative it is to stick it into the target. I thinkthe same goes for a long think blade.

If you have a big wide blade similar to a bowie knife and other simliar blade dimensions you have many more options. In stead of 'slashing' an opponent you can cut digits off, break bones in the hand/arm, collar bone, etc... and then inflict lethal wounds to the appropriate areas.

A case in point I think would be eye-witness accounts of gurkhas fighting in WWII using their Kukri knives. They would first cut the hand/forearm of their opponent and then hack the neck. No stabbing at all.

If the target is wrapped up in cloth, the weight of a good big knife can break bones and that will give you the tactical advantage to target more sensitive areas.

My two cents,

Tim

[Joachim Nilsson]

I'm afraid I don't have any pictures, but there were several such blades in the collection. I'm positive that they were for half-swording. These weren't so much extra ricassos as bastard swords with two 6-inch segments of "estoc" cross-section at about 10 inches from the hilt and again 10 inches from the tip. There were a few blade types, but they were all clearly thrusting swords. They really came accross an an unholy union of estoc and bastard sword.

Jake

Now, I know I have seen pictures or depictions of swords looking like that in some manual somewhere. But I just can't seem to find it right now, nor recollect which manual it actually was... The only lead idea I have right now is that the plates belonged to a chapter on judicial combat... <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'll do what I can to try to locate them.

Regards,

[Joachim Nilsson]

Finally found the swords I was thinking of.

Jake, were the ones you saw in the museum similar to the swords depicted in the Talhoffer 1443 edition on the plate where a knight is preparing for judicial combat and has all his available weaponry displayed on the ground at his feet?

Regards,

[Jaron Bernstein]

Casper wrote: "I guess that supports my statements."

It certainly does. I guess it is just that at least psychologically, those little nipping slashes are scary. To me at least. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />



Casper wrote: "Of course the duller it is the easier it is (at least psychologically) because you can be more careless, but hasn't made much of a difference in my experience.
How sharp the sword was and where it was sharp really depends on its blade geometry (blade form and intended use)and it's hard to make any blanket statements, Also personal preference on the "where" bit. Most swords designed to be used at all for cutting were kept, to quote Ewart Oakshotte, razor sharp, or kitchen knife sharp."

I ain't gonna argue with Sir Ewart on that one. I would be interested to hear what anyone here (Jake?) who has actually handled the period swords (I haven't) can say about how sharp they were.


Casper wrote: "As far as I can recall the only bit of advice I've read about a sword being sharpened only near the point was from Master Vadi, and in that case he wasn't talking about normal swords, but his specialized estoc can opener thingy, of a sword like shape, for fighting vs, armour. If you do that with a normal sword, you lose some versatility and slicing ability."

I was under the impression that an excessively thin "razor" type edge, while very sharp, was also prone to breakage.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Jared wrote: "I don't really have too much more to add other than to again get a knife, some clothing, and cut away."

Haven't done that yet. I DID try out my trusty pocket folder on some cardboard boxes recently and found our pretty much what y'all are saying here...cuts didn't do much but the thrusts went right through. Mark one up for the value of test cutting. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jaron Bernstein
ARMA - Columbus

[Casper Bradak]

"I was under the impression that an excessively thin "razor" type edge, while very sharp, was also prone to breakage. "

Yes, usually if someone says a sword is "razor" sharp, it's a figure of speach for "very" sharp. A sword can be very sharp and keep a plenty strong edge, but anything like a razor would be excessively weak. Like an atrim, where the edge would crumple on impact with anything hard, chip on bone, or who knows what on an accidental edge to edge.
Kitchen knife sharp on the other hand I would find fully believable, that's how I'd want my edges.
But if you wanted a sword immune to the kind of damage they apparently went through, it wouldn't be much of a sword and they would've been better off using maces.