where to start?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jay
In some respect's i agree with you in the individual technique's and drill, drill, i also disagree for the simple fact that in the "heat of battle" most of the technique's go out the window and only some very dedicated and cool headed people stick to them and get them right, i want to learn the technique's but just freeplay at wrestlin help's to get you used to being choked and your arm twisted and such i think it also help's to get rid of the "instinctive" fight or flight and allow you to be more aware that hey this is where i do the Fiore technique because you have manhandle other's and been manhandled.

One guy in the Columbus group is a gaurd and underhand choker, i just let him choke me and the doubt alway's come's to his mind because i keep fighting and when he tries to regrip to get a better grip to choke i break free and end up on top or get away, the only Martial art's training i have is from the Marine's Corps which was 9-10 year's ago, and he goes to an eastern martial art's class every sunday before our group meet's i just remain calm and don't panic that is the biggest part of combat is stay cool and think.

The more you roll on the ground and don't break bone's the better off you will be, it need's to be realistic though and i may just be moron letting someone choke, i just tell them if i stop fighting they may want to let go i may have passed out lol, either way i am learning alot.

Like i alway's say this is MHO, and could be wrong would not be the first time, and will not be the last.

[Shane Smith]

I am largely in agreement with you Jay.I taught AMA for a couple of years under my Master and your approach has proven very effective in my own experience as well.That said, I do not believe that Stew was advocating totally disregarding the source texts in the beginning.He seems to be saying that you should study the basics(from Fiore in his example)of movement and footwork first and then immediately apply them in fairly realistic freeplay to get the students mind working in the realm of realism.I agree with that if it is his position. To over-burden the aspiring martial artist with too many techniques is a hinderance.Better he learn a few basics and then be able to apply them efficiently under pressure than fill a guy with a manual full of neat stuff that he is not ready to efficiently apply.

I refer you to my driving philosophy in life; You don't always have to have the best plan.Any workable plan will suffice when carried out in a timely and efficient manner. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jay
cc: Jeff

I can see your point about not just going into freeplay without first building muscle memory with the the techniques. That said, in Columbus ARMA (and in other MA stuff I have done) I find a common dynamic: we train a specific technique over and over again. We even train a specific technique against full speed attacks with real intent behind them. And it works great in those drills. Then you try to do free play and that arm lock or rondel disarm that worked so wonderfully 10 minutes ago in the drill doesn't work at all (or barely works) in the free play. I am still trying to figure out why this is case and how to transfer the trained technique into something that is applicable in freeplay.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

Jaron, this problem of a technique working fine in drill but not in freeplay is a common one. I’ve had it happen to me and to my students many times. There are a couple of reasons for this, I think. First, in the excitement of the fight you may not be doing the technique correctly. Some techniques require fine motor movement and rather precise placement of the hands or body, particularly in the locks. If the placement is wrong, then the lock will not work. Only constant drill will give you the proper feel for the technique so that you can do it in the chaos of combat. Also, you must be prepared to switch to another technique when the first one fails. It is this flexibility/adaptability that in part underlies the principle of “ju” in judo and jujutsu.

Second, some people simply cannot be locked up as well as others even when you get it right. Their joints are more plastic or they have a higher threshold of pain.

Third, when you freeplay, especially in wrestling with an experienced opponent, he knows you’re going to try something and is alert to performing the counter. Catching someone with locks and throws requires SURPRISE. The opponent must be mentally unprepared for the technique. Locks and throws work best when he is trying one thing, and his mind is intent on what he is going to do to you, not what you are going to do to him. You avoid his technique and apply your own. Watch a judo match between two skilled opponents or a UFC contest and you’ll see what I mean.

That said, I am very high on Fiore’s unarmed techniques against the dagger, both as a foundation for knife defense in the real world and as a foundation for wrestling. These techniques are simple and universal, found in almost all real combat systems the world over in one form or another. We’ve sparred them at full intensity here and they have worked for us, but not without extensive drilling. They are not a magic bullet against a knife/rondel attack, but when you are unarmed and suddenly confronted with a small edged weapon attack, you can rely on them with more confidence than most techniques taught in AMA systems.

To Shane, I agree that fewer techniques well learned are better than many techniques half learned. My teacher stressed this point also. Giving too many techniques to students too fast is perhaps one of the great failings of modern martial arts. One of my teachers, who had a wealth of streetfighting experience in Vietnam, used to pound home the point that your typical streetfighter is formidable BECAUSE he only has like five techniques in his arsenal, but he knows them really really well. Some wrestling techniques, like the simple armbar or elbow lock with the arm straight, are applicable in an incredible number of situations. The technique is not called ikkyo (first technique) in aikido for nothing.

Last, to all, I do not mean to suggest that freeplay is not important. The ability to freeplay in a manner that very closely resembles the true fight is an important aspect of wrestling and is one that makes it a superior martial art. You get to practice your techniques in a manner that is very close to the real thing, which is not generally possible in the percussion based systems such as karate and chuanfa. This is excellent preparation for the true fight.

A fighter who has tirelessly drilled his techniques and then tested them in the crucible of freeplay will be formidable.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jay

I totaly agree with you on this, in that like you said, a limited number of good technique's that are applied in many situation's is the best way to go, i am a firm beleiver in the K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid) rule.

in the heat of battle you have to go on instinct.

[JeffGentry]

That's exactly what I'm saying. If you have already been studying principles of martial arts, which everyone in my group has been doing before I start showing them grappling. I said to take the principles that you know, i.e. from longsword, sword and dagger, what you have learned about footwork through drills and exercises. Start to "feel" what your opponent is doing in a grappling situation. I think I should have related what I advocate to start with more to a winding/feeling exercise than to free-play. Point is, there are techniques, and there is the ability to know when to use the techniques. You need both. You can't develop the "feeling" by just learning and drilling the techniques.

Stew

I guess i am at a disadvatage not having realy studied any Martial art, only what we did in the Military, that is why i think the free play has been helping me, I am learning alot about how to just wrestle and be aggressive and aware of what my opponent is doing.

We do work technique's and wrestle free, the combination i think is the key just like our waster, padded, blunt's, and sharp test cutting. You know initialy with the padded sparring it is difficult to work the gaurd's and cutt's when you start then it all start's to gel as you get the feel of the gaurd's and striking from them.

Not only that i like trying to whip my training partner's in wrestling. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Jaron, this problem of a technique working fine in drill but not in freeplay is a common one. I’ve had it happen to me and to my students many times. There are a couple of reasons for this, I think. First, in the excitement of the fight you may not be doing the technique correctly. Some techniques require fine motor movement and rather precise placement of the hands or body, particularly in the locks. If the placement is wrong, then the lock will not work. Only constant drill will give you the proper feel for the technique so that you can do it in the chaos of combat."

I certainly am with you that you need to constantly drill the techniques, especially the fine motor ones, to have any hope of using them. My problem is that we DO drill them repeatedly and still can't seem to bridge that gap between drill and making it work in actual freeplay application.


" Also, you must be prepared to switch to another technique when the first one fails. It is this flexibility/adaptability that in part underlies the principle of “ju” in judo and jujutsu."

I will try that out. I think there is a tendency to "focus in" on the rondel and I lose sight of the other options available besides "get that knife away from him".

"Third, when you freeplay, especially in wrestling with an experienced opponent, he knows you’re going to try something and is alert to performing the counter. Catching someone with locks and throws requires SURPRISE. The opponent must be mentally unprepared for the technique. Locks and throws work best when he is trying one thing, and his mind is intent on what he is going to do to you, not what you are going to do to him. You avoid his technique and apply your own. Watch a judo match between two skilled opponents or a UFC contest and you’ll see what I mean."

I do see your point. I would say that Columbus ARMA is fairly novice when it comes to weapons work, with the exception of Jeff the Elder. So we are all at pretty much the same stage of rondels and disarms. So, I don't know if our (ahem)(un)exceptional skills countering the other is the problem.

" We’ve sparred them at full intensity here and they have worked for us, but not without extensive drilling. They are not a magic bullet against a knife/rondel attack, but when you are unarmed and suddenly confronted with a small edged weapon attack, you can rely on them with more confidence than most techniques taught in AMA systems."

So in essence, we just need to spend more time on the drills and that will eventually translate into real utility? I do agree that Fiori is very cool.


"Last, to all, I do not mean to suggest that freeplay is not important. The ability to freeplay in a manner that very closely resembles the true fight is an important aspect of wrestling and is one that makes it a superior martial art. You get to practice your techniques in a manner that is very close to the real thing, which is not generally possible in the percussion based systems such as karate and chuanfa. This is excellent preparation for the true fight.

A fighter who has tirelessly drilled his techniques and then tested them in the crucible of freeplay will be formidable."

I guess we need to more of that tireless drilling. At what point should we start to free play? We CAN make Fioris and Vadi's locks work fine in the drills (even with full intent attacks from the partner). From that I got the impression we were ready for free sparring, but it just doesn't seem to translate over. It can be a touch frustrating.

[Jay Vail]

Jaron,

A few additional comments.

First, focus on the forearm and hand when performing knife defense. Don’t focus on the blade. Your objective is to get control of his arm, especially his elbow. If you look closely at Fiore’s unarmed plays against the dagger, you’ll notice that almost all of them involve controlling and destroying the integrity of the elbow.

Second, sparring the dagger defense techniques is hard because your training partner generally will not attack you in the way you will be attacked on the street. I have found that almost invariably when you spar unarmed against a knifer in the dojo/salle, the knifer does not make a committed attack, but instead makes short probing feints and cuts, which are all but impossible to catch. A real attack is very different. A real attack is a committed attack. That is, the attacker decides to stick you and then makes a forceful blow intended to land and kill. There are no feints. Fiore’s techniques, in my opinion, are designed to deal with the committed attack. And I think they do what they are designed to do. They work less well against these jabby feints and snap cuts, although they will work against them too if you are quick and careful. You just have to accept the fact that you’ll get killed most of the time. Could this be part of the problem?

But take heart. It is not necessary to spar knife defense techniques to trust them to work in the real world. A friend of mine defended himself successfully last year against a knife attack using a technique he had never free sparred and had only worked in drill.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron
From now on you'll get only dedicated stab's from me if you don't get the first i'll keep going till you do what you want to do, i do think this is part of our problem when we do this i know for sure i work to keep you from doing what i know you are going to do and that is a disservice to you i need to just attack and try to "kill" you and if/when you get your hold fine.

I think it is the ego of us all or most of us at least.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

"First, focus on the forearm and hand when performing knife defense. Don’t focus on the blade. Your objective is to get control of his arm, especially his elbow. If you look closely at Fiore’s unarmed plays against the dagger, you’ll notice that almost all of them involve controlling and destroying the integrity of the elbow.

Second, sparring the dagger defense techniques is hard because your training partner generally will not attack you in the way you will be attacked on the street. I have found that almost invariably when you spar unarmed against a knifer in the dojo/salle, the knifer does not make a committed attack, but instead makes short probing feints and cuts, which are all but impossible to catch. A real attack is very different. A real attack is a committed attack. That is, the attacker decides to stick you and then makes a forceful blow intended to land and kill. There are no feints. Fiore’s techniques, in my opinion, are designed to deal with the committed attack. And I think they do what they are designed to do. They work less well against these jabby feints and snap cuts, although they will work against them too if you are quick and careful. You just have to accept the fact that you’ll get killed most of the time. Could this be part of the problem?"

It is a bit of a challenge. We got a bunch of new folks so our rondel training has dropped off, but hopefully we can pick it up again soon and I will try to get the elbow instead of playing trying to grab a hand moving at 100 mph. Jeff the younger has agreed to committed attacks, so we will see how that goes.

"But take heart. It is not necessary to spar knife defense techniques to trust them to work in the real world. A friend of mine defended himself successfully last year against a knife attack using a technique he had never free sparred and had only worked in drill."

I was under the impression that unless you train a technique repeatedly in free sparring, it won't work in real life. By way of example, a fairly simple using the ochs to block a zornhau. I knew intellectually that it would work, and did it in waster drills who knows how many times, but only yesterday after much time was it "muscle memory" enough to actually work in free sparring.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

I think some of it to come's from thought and a lack of confidence, alot of time's there is the fear thing that make's you think for just a split second and that is all it take's for any technique not to work(indes) the hesitation from from lack of confidence or fear(because that is all a lack of confidence is) will put you in the nach. you need to think it just has to be alot faster in observing and doing.

I think indes is essential in a knife fight, nach is certainly a bad thing.

Jeff

[Jay Vail]

grab the forearm or wrist area, then work the elbow.

I was under the impression that unless you train a technique repeatedly in free sparring, it won't work in real life.

Well, people will differ about that, but I know of several instances where people used stuff successfully that they only ever practiced in drills and never freeplayed.

[Shawn Cathcart]

Sounds silly, but teach people how to fall and roll and tumble. This is the first thing we do. Many people seem to concentrate on the armbars/knife disarms which is fine, but there is a wealth of different techniques in WMA wrestling. Anything involving take downs, trips, hip throws, (of which there are plenty) requires control on the throwers part, but also some knowledge of how to fall on the throwee's part. Most peoples reflex is to put an arm down or brace their fall in some similiar fashion, which can injure the arm. Practicing forward and backwards rolls and tumbles helps as well.

As for things working in sparring I think the comments so far have been good. Another thing to remember is that it is exceedingly rare that any technique comes off completely clean. Watch UFC or any type of sparring/fighting period. How often does someone get a picture perfect take down? Not very often. They often look messy because you are scrambling against a target that is actively resisting against you. It is this active resistance that changes the dynamic, and that many people forget to include in their drills I think. Watching many beginners, most peoples reflex to unarmed drills is to either go ragdoll limp, or to put up exaggerated resistance.

Another factor is the success rate of the initial attack/technique being very low. Take long sword, how often does the first cut succeed, without a bind and winden, or a dynamic changing of target midway through? Almost never. Same thing goes with unarmed. Most peoples reflexes will cause them to do something that will disrupt your first effort more often than not. The trick is to expect that and work with it.

Even the locked arm position depicted in every WMA wrestling manual is not the default position. They either got there by one or the other trying to grab/choke/punch/strike the other, and then the arms get tied up as happens by most peoples reflex action. The manuals then describe what to do from that scenario/position. And its likely that there is some jostling for position before the technique is executed.

In my opinion one of the main things to remember in any unarmed/wrestling scenario is the importance on leverage. Its very prevalent in the WMA manuals. Leg steps behind, arm slides in front across the chest. Top and bottom, and push them opposite directions. Push the chest back, use the leg and hip to pop the leg and their hip forward. Lock the hand/wrist in a stationary location, manipulate the elbow one way, step on the other side of the lead foot and push them the other way. Its to a large degree about disrupting balance and then taking advantage of that if possible.

[Casper Bradak]

Even the locked arm position depicted in every WMA wrestling manual is not the default position. They either got there by one or the other trying to grab/choke/punch/strike the other, and then the arms get tied up as happens by most peoples reflex action. The manuals then describe what to do from that scenario/position. And its likely that there is some jostling for position before the technique is executed.

That's an important point, and a necessary one, that's only touched on lightly in the manuals, assuming a fuller knowledge.
It's common knowledge to people who study grappling arts like judo or wrestling, but is often unknown to people beginning unarmed combat from the manuals in RMA.
Using principles laid out by masters, such as "Meet weakness with strength, and strength with weakness", and the principle of feulen (sp?) or feeling, but without weapons. These techniques are initiated to counter an opponents move, or by maneuvering the opponent into position.
You can see in a judo match, that the 2 opponents will be walking around in small steps. When one senses (through fulen) the others foot lift, he knows he can execute a sweep to that leg.
This is passingly mentioned in the same techniques in the codex wallerstein. They will say something to the effect of "go around with him for a while" or "push him to and fro". That is what is meant by those phrases. There is a great deal of assumed subtlety that need intstructing to pull them off effectively because the author assumes they are already known. If someone is in the waage, you can't just go throw them over your shoulder. It requires the manuevers or a counter.