Ringeck's First Leg-break

[JeffGentry]

Roger

I can see all sort's of variation's on this, you could even just spin and hit the elbow hard with the left hand and do some damge, there are so many bad thing's you can do in combat wrestling.

yea gotta love it.

Jeff

[Shawn Cathcart]

1. You reach across with your right hand, binding up his right arm. You then step behind his lead leg: you just put yourself in a nice position for an elbow dislocation.

2.
the text state's: set the left foot in front of his leg, so you have to be either facing directly toward him or you need to on his side(somewhat).

3. Then punch him in front of you over the hip. you can't do this if your right leg is behind him.

Firstly the described action was in response to the action mentioned by phillipe at the top of this page (page 2) which unless I'm mistaken appears to be a different action than that described in the first post of page 1.

In response to point 1. If you leave your arm completely straight, yes the counter is to seize the arm, lean forward, hyper-extending the elbow, and forcing the opponent now over your leg instead and putting him into the ground. However you don't leave your arm completely straight. You leave your elbow bent, and place it against his chest or throat, which gives you the leverage to pull him backwards over your hip. It also makes it extremely difficult to hyper-extend the elbow against a resisting opponent. If he counters, pushing your elbow over and down, you go down with it and lift/pull his leg with your free hand, again tossing him backwards...counter to the counter.

If you read my previous post on Page 1 I basically describe the same action you described in points 2 and 3. It just seemed to me that the action described by Phillipe on this page was not the same action described by the initial post of this thread...agree? Disagree?

[Shawn Cathcart]

Actually rereading the text I could see how they could be construed to be the same. Do they in fact come from the same source? There are some fairly significant differences in translation if that is the case.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Von bain brüchen: der erst bain bruch.
About the leg breaks: The first leg break
Das ist das gemain ringen an armen, daß do haist: ain bain bruch; das trybmitt kröfften. Vnd begryffest du im den gerechte arm, (74 v ) so tritt in mittdem rechten fuß hinder sich vnd wer setz im mitt dem lincken fuß für sin bain;vnd stoß in für sich über die huff: damit volg.

This is the common (gemain= gemein) wrestling at the arms, which you heard. A leg break that you execute with craft (krofften=kraeften). And should you grab him in the appropriate/ extended/rightward arm. So you walk in with the right foot behind itself and displace/bend (versetz/ wer setz) him with the left foot for/at his leg and throw/chop/strike him away (fur sich=apart) over/across the (huff=hufte) hips with that follows (up)


This is a difficult one to make sens out of
I am not sure you actually step back.
There are few things that really puzzles me:
Tritt in is equivalent in meaning to step in (tretten is used for step walk)

The hinter sich. This is the reflexive form and grammatically, fuss seems the best choice.
Tritt hinter (or hinter dich) mitt dem rectcheten fuss. Is the way they usually uses to say step back.

Personally it is linked to the move in the second ringen.
Item, wann du zu dem ersten ringen nicht komen kanst, so Wechsel die vnderen handt oben vnd die obernvnden also, daß die ain hand sy an dem halß vnd die andern an dem bain:daß tryb von baiden sytten. Der vil ringen gert vnnd haisset der bainbruchan dem arm.

Item when you cannot be successful with the first wrestling. So change the lower hand to above and the upper one to below as well. So that one hand is at the throat and the other is at the leg. That works from both sides. Many wrestling come from that and are called the leg break at the arm

So I think the actual throw is along the line of tenchi nage (tenkan or irimi ?) with koshi nague."

I know nage means throw, but otherwise my judo vocabulary (at least the words if not the techniques) is limited. Could you please describe these throws?

First, the many things suggested here seem to fit the language.

Perhaps it could mean this. 1. Face your opponent. 2. Grab his right arm with your right arm. 3. Pull his right arm to your right side while at the same time...4. Take your right foot and step behind your left leg TOWARDS him (thus crossing your right leg behind your left). You should now both be facing the same direction with his right arm extended across your chest. 5. Take you left leg in front of his right leg and kick it back while torqing him forward over your leg.

Any thoughts?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shawn

I thought you were talking about my post, i am not good at explaining thing's in text i am better at demonstrating them, thought i had confused you.

Jeff

[JeffGentry]

Jaron

1. Face your opponent. 2. Grab his right arm with your right arm. 3. Pull his right arm to your right side while at the same time...4. Take your right foot and step behind your left leg TOWARDS him (thus crossing your right leg behind your left). You should now both be facing the same direction with his right arm extended across your chest. 5. Take you left leg in front of his right leg and kick it back while torqing him forward over your leg.

Yea yea that's what i was trying to say, thank's Jaron,.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello jeff, all
Sorry I have been so long to reply. Please not that even more than usual those are possible interpretation. I cannot tell really says that I think it is one or the other or that is more likely than the one you have come up so far.

Tenchi nage is heaven and heath throw and koshi nague is a hip throw. (That the name in Aikido).
Tenci nague consist of using an arm to take the opponent of balance using the third point either in front or back. (Since we have two legs, any stance is instable in one direction and stable in the other) and then sort of clotheslining him (well technically with an up and down motion).

Tenkan and tenchin are just the move as you start the technique.
Tenkan you are turning so you end up facing the same way than your opponent (it is usually for a brief moment.
Tenchin you are swaping your front foot and taking as slight step to the side of the foot that is going to become the new front one.

In any aikido technique you can finish with tenchi nague (just to make sure it ids a pain to break fall out of. It is just a variation of the body technique. What I mean is it can be integrated in a single move (you just finish the technique in a different place).

If we take from the second wrestling:
Both hold each other at shoulder upper arm level both with the right foot in front

If we do the second wrestling we are going to end up left foot forward and with a change of the higher hand.
So we have three possibilities for the grab. (since we are not sure what gerechte meams and we do not know with what hand)
We know that the left foot has to be close/near to a leg during the technique and that we throw him over the hips with a stossen

1) we grab is right arm with our left. So as we do the second ringen we can either go straight in with the left foot forward bring his left arm down toward the third point on his back. The right foot creating a side movement by staying, So we are sort of ending up at 45 deg to him.
We the step in the gap of his arm and his boddy with the right leg and throw him with the help of the right arm at his head
(I think our left leg is a bit far form his body, granted that is the closet bit for a while but well)
That would be tenchi nague (irimi= movement forward)

2) You a can as well use the second ringen to turn round and go back (which is forward from the initial position. Open him up (arm to the third point from the initial position) as you do the stossen (ie the close line bit) and coming back into our normal facing position (well the throw should be done at 45deg).
(I did like that one because we are going “forward” and the right foot is going behind itself. but well)
If we grab his right arm with our left we are going to throw him over the right hip
If we grab his left arm with our right we are going to throw him over the left hip. That is the tenkan bit.


3) we could as well feed him through with either opposite grip (our right to his right or our left to his left. As we do the second ringen you grab his arm/wrist.
You could even lock it as you proceed) and you bring it to his third point (the front one this time. You can help feeding the arm through with the other hand
You then finish him of by a step and the clothesline (or a grab on the other side of the neck) accoding to what arm you use.


About jeff and jaron
what you describe would fit better the second bain bruch (no ? what do you think)
Ain ander bainbruch.
The second leg break
Mitt welcher hand ain man dich an grifft, der hand nym war; vnd begryftden arm mitt bayden henden hinder siner hand, vnd wend vmb din ruck fürsein bauch. An dem vmbwenden, so heb sin arm vff din nächste achsel vnddruck do mitt nider: so brichst du im do mitt den arm. Ob dir der bruchvolgt, wend dich vmb vnd ring.

With what ever hand he tries to grab you with, you grab that hand with both/either hands/grips behind his hand, and turn you back at his belly, at the turn so hold his arm on your closest shoulder/armpit and press it down, so breaking the arm. If he follows the break, turn yourself around and wrestle.

[JeffGentry]

Philippe
what we see is more a side by side throw, it seem's the second is a variation of one, if one doesn't work you could go to two or vice verse.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hmmm...

OK, first thanks for explaining the Aikido terms. What is the "third point" you refer to, so I can better understand your description.

Secondly, the second wrestling you describe doesn't seem to match the first (earlier) second wrestling text, so I am having a hard time figuring out which one we are switching into if the 1st ringen doesn't work. Which 2nd wrestling text are we trying to figure out here?

Third, this if the text of the first ringen (and original question) if I have it correct:

"Von bain brüchen: der erst bain bruch.
About the leg breaks: The first leg break
Das ist das gemain ringen an armen, daß do haist: ain bain bruch; das trybmitt kröfften. Vnd begryffest du im den gerechte arm, (74 v ) so tritt in mittdem rechten fuß hinder sich vnd wer setz im mitt dem lincken fuß für sin bain;vnd stoß in für sich über die huff: damit volg.

This is the common (gemain= gemein) wrestling at the arms, which you heard. A leg break that you execute with craft (krofften=kraeften). And should you grab him in the appropriate/ extended/rightward arm. So you walk in with the right foot behind itself and displace/bend (versetz/ wer setz) him with the left foot for/at his leg and throw/chop/strike him away (fur sich=apart) over/across the (huff=hufte) hips with that follows (up)

OK. From this I hope we can all agree that:
1. The other guy is having his right arm pulled (whether by us on the same or opposite side is unkown).
2. Our left leg is somehow being used to chop him as part of the throw. Whether we are throwing him backwards or forwards over our left leg is unknown.
3. He is going over our hips.

If we can agree on that, then...that still leaves open a great many combinations, many listed above. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />


What do ye think? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

Here is the text that was originaly posted.

"This is the usual wrestle at the arms, which is called Leg-break drive it with force. And if you seize his right arm, then step with the right leg to the rear and set the left foot in front of his leg. Then punch him in front of you over the hip."

That is the one you and i were describing.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

yeap
The second (the one where he clearly says to face the same direction that the BG) seems to be closer to what you describe.

But it is striking that the technique is so clearly described in that one and not the first one. (All the other bainbruch seems to be clear and not that ambiguous).

What you propose may well be the 1st one, may be there is enough variation to have needed a separate explanation.

Philippe

[philippewillaume]

This is really the problem with translation.
The on Jeff posted is a proper English version the German text I quoted and translated in pigeon English.
The problem is that to make in English-english you need to make some choices in order to make it easer to understand.
Or you take the approach I have choosen, whicjh is pigeon English but leaves the grammatical structure as intact as possible which gives you a better feel for the language itself

For example
Take him by the right arm:
I think it the case though we are not sure that it is the meaning of gerechten.
Usually right arm is rechtem arm. (and you find that in the manuscript)
Gerechten is usually used for extended or straight. (but the other meaning I quoted are always possible) but no the less if we take either the second ringen or the other bain bruch

Set with the right leg to rear:
May be misleading what they say is with the right foot behind itself.
That is a different structure as the one usually employed to say step back with the foot

The left foot in front of the leg is in my opinion a counter sens. In front is always expressed by Vor, Für expresses a direction or a generic vicinity. It has more the meaning of in the direction of/ near than in front.

The original text says wer setz. So I would be tempted to believe that it is zwer (wer=zwer) setz rather than versets. Hence I would believe the meaning is more bend/crock him with the left leg close/towards him.

I think the stoss is what makes you fall over the hips.


As I said before I think your move is definitely a possibility.( thank lads, one more possibility)
Stepping behind itself as far as I can think of has only 2 possibilities.
Either you turn you body and go backward.
Or you standing with the left leg forward send your right foot to the left side for a full 180 or a small step.

And may be it all right to send in front or back may be you just do what is convenient at the time



Jaron, about the third point:
What ever the stance you are in you have a stong line and a weak line (this is because we have only two leg)

So for example if you are standing square foot apart and shoulder parralle to the foot.
You will be weak if someone grab you bay the shirt and pull you towards him or push you back. The third point is the representation of the summit of the triangle where your feet delimit the base and that point toward with you are imbalanced if pulled.

[JeffGentry]

Philippe

Every time i talk to you i get a small education in language, i'll be speaking old german fluently before long, lol, glad someone know's what the heck is being said though i do appreciate the little lesson's Philippe they are very help to me since i only speak english, and i know some time's being able to get a more accurate translation or the little language variation's are helpful.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

cheers mate
thanks, You give me too much credit.
Like the sword techniques this is a dead languague so.
I trying to be consistent with the grammar and the vocabulary through the manual (at least the same manual). I think that help in finding the sense behind of the words. but at the end it just an opinion (or an educated guess) of a translation so others people take is always good.

nonthe less thank you again.
It is a two way traffic anyway.
I can not have all the ideas or intuitions. (I whish but well i am not that good). that jut can happen by bouncing and taking ideas from people.

If you are intersted in can pass you my translation for the longsword, sword and buckler and wrestling.

[Shawn Cathcart]

1. Face your opponent. 2. Grab his right arm with your right arm. 3. Pull his right arm to your right side while at the same time...4. Take your right foot and step behind your left leg TOWARDS him (thus crossing your right leg behind your left). You should now both be facing the same direction with his right arm extended across your chest. 5. Take you left leg in front of his right leg and kick it back while torqing him forward over your leg.

I see what your getting at. I'll try that one out. I know we've done a technique similiar to that, but not sure if it was in relation to this particular manual/leg break. Funny that both variations work in their own way. Always good to see different takes on it though <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

No worries over the confusion either. The thread just demonstrates again how easy it is to get wires crossed by just reading text. Be it on the internet or in the manuals <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />