ReMA vs. MMA

[Max Lancaster]

And I forgot to mention..What the Hell is WMA?
Where can you see what it looks like or what it does?

[JeffGentry]

Max

WMA=Western Martial art's or what we do in ARMA

I just don't see MMA as the end all be all

We do not see it as the end all be all, Me personaly I just see that it is better than the garbage taught at the average McDojo.

If there are no rule's then your opponent can do all the same thing's and you might find yourself in a bad position with a guy who know's about positioning and how to control his opponent and he start's biting you while he is doing a RNC, or breaking your finger's while doing an arm bar, or doing a heel hook while kicking you in the groin, or breaking your finger's while doing a triangle choke, or kneeing you in the groin when you go to a closed gaurd.

See when you open up that can of worm's it is a two way street, If you can do it then so can your opponent, I am the kind that think's of all the nasties that I can when the rule's are removed.

Jeff

[Max Lancaster]

No, I ment the Wma Grappling..And usually the guys we train are not ready for what can happen when you try to apply a lock or choke.

They are not taught that part of the system because there is no reason to.

They can't use it..And from most of my experiance most of the guys that want to learn shoot fighting and the Cage stuff have the super jock mentality of "I can beat anyone with my Arm bar"..Not the case not the case at all"

In Kali, I tried to take someone down and then did something to me , I will never forget hahaha

But as for the WMA..Is there a certain Hand to hand and what does it look or act like..?

[Brian Hunt]

WMA

stands for Western Martial Arts. The unarmed form is a standup grappling form that includes strikes. There are two different verisions of German and Italian, or Ringen and Abrazare repectivly. It can involve unarmed vs. unarmed, or unarmed vs. various weapons, dagger, sword, etc.

For more information on renaissance wrestling see the various manuals such as the Codex Wallerstein, Ringeck, Fiore's 3 manuscripts, Paulus Hector Mair, Fabian Von Auerswauld, Hans Wurm, Vadi, Talhoffer, and many many others.

laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Gene Tausk]

And I forgot to mention..What the Hell is WMA?
Where can you see what it looks like or what it does?

Mr. Lancaster:

Don't ever use profanity on our forums again or you will be banned.

[Max Lancaster]

I did not know that was profanity. As a matter of fact I don't belive it is, It's a meaning of a location given to us by several different Religion's but if Arma belives it is.. I will not use the word again and I Apologize but if you could please provide me with a link to the forum rules so, I am aware of thing's that will get you banned..That would be great.

@ Brian Hunt - Thank you for pointing that out to me. I did not really know what it was. I have heard folk's here mention it but really never took a look at it.

[Gene Tausk]

I did not know that was profanity. As a matter of fact I don't belive it is, It's a meaning of a location given to us by several different Religion's but if Arma belives it is.. I will not use the word again and I Apologize but if you could please provide me with a link to the forum rules so, I am aware of thing's that will get you banned..That would be great.

@ Brian Hunt - Thank you for pointing that out to me. I did not really know what it was. I have heard folk's here mention it but really never took a look at it.

Mr. Lancaster: I'm not going to argue with you about the meaning of "profanity." A reasonable person looks at the word you wrote and would view it as profane, especially in the way you used it. Your argument makes no more sense than if I were to state that the profane variant of the word "to copulate" is not profanity because it describes a real, biological act.

Our forum rules are clearly posted on the entrance to the forum. Not using profanity is simple courtesy especially considering that this is an open forum.

[Max Lancaster]

Gene : As I said "I Apologize"

[Jonathan Coupe]

I see these locks and the style that I take to counter these locks is to bite down on their jucie arm and rip a chunk out of it..You wont belive how fast someone will let go of you when you tear a mouth sized bite out of there arm and how quick that lock will let go.

Another great lock breaker that the UFC banned is another great Krav maga and other systems of fighting answer to being grappled..Taking your finger and sticking it into the eye ball of the grappler OR grabbing fingers and breaking them.

(Apologies if this is an effective double post - I'm still getting used to the forum interface.)

There is an extremely respected US unarmed combat teacher, Jack Perkins, who would agree with you. His site (the not very well named www.attackproof.com - good site though, and said to be excellent tuition) has a video of his countering a BJJ style grapple. I think the first 2 seconds consist of him squeezing his opponent's family jewels, and the next 2 are an eye gouge. And that's it. (His senior protege, btw, is a USMC Lt Col who is trained to teach USMC combatives - which are heavily based on BJJ, I believe.)

Other than bite/gouge/break fingers, the other thing that would worry me in close grappling would be low kicks. What if the opponent stamped an my instep? Good chance of a break. Side kick with weight dropped on to on my lower leg? A break. Then there are throat tears, punches and elbow strikes, head butts, and slaps over the eardrum...

My bet is that Ringen avoided BJJ grappling for exactly these reasons. In a real fight against a desperate opponent, going deliberately to the ground is a good way to get maimed.

[Stacy Clifford]

The old masters were no strangers to dirty fighting. Check out the latter half of Passchen's wrestling text from 1659:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Passchen/Passchen.htm

One example:

When Advers. has enclosed you with his arms [a bear hug from the front], push both your thumbs in his mouth between his cheeks and teeth, and tear his mouth, as in N° 34

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yes, and in the Duerer wrestling there is the throat-press/gouge and a bunch of other painful crippling techniques.

[Stewart Sackett]

My bet is that Ringen avoided BJJ grappling for exactly these reasons. In a real fight against a desperate opponent, going deliberately to the ground is a good way to get maimed.

There are dangers to any range of fighting. However, when it comes to grappling (either standing or on the ground) any attack that is possible from a weak position is at least as available from a dominant position. While it is certainly true that after taking an opponent to the ground he may chose to gouge your eyes it is also true that you could gouge his & (if you are in a superior position) there is little he could do about it.

I have never found theories relating to so-called “foul tactics” to be a convincing argument against any range of combat. Everyone can bite & eye gouge. In that regard the playing field is level. Not everyone can box, wrestle, apply joint locks, etc. That requires skill, which is born of training.

A much more credible argument (IMHO) to explain the absence of ground fighting in Ringen is simply the fact that it was an art geared towards mass combat, as well as judicial duels, & on the battle field no-one wants to be trampled by horses.

[Jonathan Coupe]

My bet is that Ringen avoided BJJ grappling for exactly these reasons. In a real fight against a desperate opponent, going deliberately to the ground is a good way to get maimed.

There are dangers to any range of fighting. However, when it comes to grappling (either standing or on the ground) any attack that is possible from a weak position is at least as available from a dominant position. While it is certainly true that after taking an opponent to the ground he may chose to gouge your eyes it is also true that you could gouge his & (if you are in a superior position) there is little he could do about it.

In what sense are you in a "superior position" for eye gouging? I'd say that if anything the top is an inferior position for gouging - his hand use is complicated by the need to support his bodyweight. If you're on top of me and gouging my eyes, I'll bring my elbows between your arms and smash them open (because they're bearing weight this will be much easier) and do a counter-gouge. Plus, if you actually ARE trying to grapple with someone, then your hands are already busy - grappling.

What else would stop me grappling if I was a C15th mercenary? The risk of someone having a small sharp object hidden on them - a large needle would be enough - that they could use while I was being all technical.

And don't forget teeth. My girlfriend need antibiotics and almost had to be hospitalized after getting infected from a cat bite; human bites are MUCH worse. Grapple someone in a life and death situation and you will get bitten; that carries a damn high risk of death pre-antibiotics. Bite wounds are amazingly common after fights.

But the real point is that the risk of gouging and other desperation moves makes closing unwise in a life and death situation. The techniques that it is designed to set-up fail against an opponent who is allowed gouges, ear-claps, throat tears - even if you kill him first, you'll still be likely to suffer badly from the damage he did.

I have never found theories relating to so-called “foul tactics” to be a convincing argument against any range of combat. Everyone can bite & eye gouge. In that regard the playing field is level. Not everyone can box, wrestle, apply joint locks, etc.

This is like saying "an assault rifle is so easy, everyone can use it - I'll concentrate on my rapier skill."

A tactic is not more effective simply because it requires more skill; some things that are hard to do can be countered by things that are easy to do. BJJ style grappling falls into this category outside of refereed matches. It's a practical part of a fighting style for, say, a nightclub bouncer who has to remove drunks without killing them and has colleagues to fall back on. But in a life and death battle in a world of appalling brutality, poor dental hygiene, and where leeching was state of the art medical care, it's something I'd avoid.

That's not to say that skill is irrelevant in such combat, just that certain skillful acts are not wise - which I think is very uncontroversial.

[Jeffrey Hull]

FYI: I have not found any evidence of biting in the fight-manuals. Although there is some for beard-pulling.

[Stacy Clifford]

Keep in mind that in the Renaissance much of their fighting was done in relatively thick long sleeved clothing, so a bite to anything other than the face or hands is basically going to be more of a really hard pinch than a flesh rending wound in a lot of cases. Also, a lot of the wrestling moves in the manuals rely on swiftness and surprise to work. The masters aren't saying it's going to be easy to struggle your way into that starting position every time, but if you do manage to seize that arm in the right way or get him into the right position, then your training gives you the means to recognize your advantage and execute something useful quickly and violently and take the initiative. Any human being who's spent more than 30 seconds of his life wrestling knows you get into those grips where neither side can get exactly what he's going for, but good awareness of body mechanics (yours and his) gives you a much better chance to work your way out of that.