The Ignorance of Western Martial Arts

[Jay Vail]

by the 10th centry many of the norman, icelandic and germanic people had recorded over 50 throwing teachniques as well as stricking, chocking, kicking and breaking teachniques greatly resembling a combination of wreastling, judo and karate.

What are your sources for this statement? Particularly the claim of "by the 10th century"?

[Joachim Nilsson]

Brian Hunt wrote:

Wow, a large number of those are ARMA videos directly from this site.

Yes.... Quite a few of them actually... With no credit whatsoever given to ARMA...

[LynGrey]

FIrst rule of disarming 1) the person is dangerous, not the weapon!

the weapon isn't going to do anything to you with out the person trust me.... i've never had a knife on a kitchen counter cut me by itself, i've never had a club hit me in the head laying on the ground... i've never had a shotgun blast me in the stomach when its just in my gun rack alone...

I thought i would nip that in the butt =)

The ignorance of Western Martial arts is that... is that most people are eastern culture fan boys =)

[kenneth house]

Well of course ninjutsu is better. Everyone knows ninja are capable of flight, teleportation and killing you from several feet away through sheer force of will. In short -"your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side".

I must say though, being a student of Korean martial arts I can definitally empathize with ARMA's position. Due to cultural changes, war and occupation Korea's martial history was almost entirely lost by the time Japanese forces left at the end of WWII.

In Haidong Gumdo we train in the use of a two handed sabre not unlike the Japanese tachi. The art was constructed primarily through the study of old manuals, experimentation, logic, and comparison with existing arts. Korean arts are often accused of being simply copied from Japanese and Chinese traditions or having no historical basis at all. It can be extremely agitating to attempt to argue that Haidong Gumdo teaches legitimate ancient fighting techniques and strategies. "But Gumdo's lineage doesn't go any farther back than the 50's" is usually the argument. One of the problems seems to be the idea that an art must have an uninterrupted lineage of instructors dating back a dozen generations to be legitimate.

A style should, however, be part of an unbroken lineage if the practitioner emphatically claims to be doing a given MA as it was done in the days of yore.

I am further intrigued by the constant comparison to/belittling of Asian arts relative to European cognates. Why do people here place so much stock into what people, ignorant of these traditions, think about WMAs? If WMAs are truly worth their weight in efficiency, etc., then this shall be borne out.

Further, any disrespect given to WMAs are solely the fault of Westerners, as all media attention surrounding them derives from Western opinions on the subject. Likewise, if Westeners have not seen the very personal benefits derived from these arts and, by extension, the need to preserve them, then with whom are todays reconstructionists angry: with an ignorant public or Western ancestors who did not preserve these arts for their descendants?

At some point, this constant anger towards Asian arts relative to a public perception of WMAs and AMAs must be discarded, less practitioners of these warrior crafts be seen as nothing more than wining little crybabies.

I believe that all of this is tied into your statement about lineage.

[J. F. McBrayer]

I am further intrigued by the constant comparison to/belittling of Asian arts relative to European cognates. Why do people here place so much stock into what people, ignorant of these traditions, think about WMAs?

I think the belittling of Asian arts around here is just overreaction. In the broader public view, Asian martial arts are the only real martial arts, and by definition superior to anything else. As WMA practitioners, we should be making the case that our arts are equal to any others, but some peoples emotions get the better of them and they go farther than is warranted. It doesn't help that there are a lot of McDojos and bullshido out there in the Asian martial arts as practiced in the US. It's certainly a rather unfortunate meme for our community to be infected with, however.

There's also the curious fact that some people around here are so dismissive of our actual living tradition, classical fencing. I have not begun to wrap my mind around this phenomenon, except to think that it may have to do with guilt-by-association with Olympic fencing.

[Randall Pleasant]

Incidentally I won the bronze medal at the world masters judo championship with a standing armlock (fiore de libre, Wrestling section ,first tecnique).

Rey

I will quote that the next time someone asks if WMA is being used in competion.
By the way, are you going to make the International event in 2007?

[Allen Johnson]

There's also the curious fact that some people around here are so dismissive of our actual living tradition, classical fencing. I have not begun to wrap my mind around this phenomenon, except to think that it may have to do with guilt-by-association with Olympic fencing.

I think that MOST of the classical fencing clubs we see are a direct lineage to salle fencing- as opposed to serious dueling. In the 19th century and on we see more and more people training as a sport as opposed to training for an actual encounter. In comes the rules and regulations and out goes its martial legitimacy. Most of the classical fencing clubs employ the exact same rules and basic weapon of modern foil fencing. They mostly use the same flimsy modern epee blades that do not behave the same as the more stiff and rigid period smallsword blades. Most do not allow grappling or the use of off hand weapons.

So the guilty by association may be a correct assessment but possibly for legitimate reasons. There is a strong association. They work backwards from sport fencing as opposed to forward from true smallsword or rapier fencing. This is of course a generalization, and there is I'm sure some places that do smallsword 'right'. But those are, are much more rare than the ones who are basically just doing non-electric foil with and Italian style hilt.

[JeffGentry]

I am further intrigued by the constant comparison to/belittling of Asian arts relative to European cognates. Why do people here place so much stock into what people, ignorant of these traditions, think about WMAs?

I think the belittling of Asian arts around here is just overreaction. In the broader public view, Asian martial arts are the only real martial arts, and by definition superior to anything else. As WMA practitioners, we should be making the case that our arts are equal to any others, but some peoples emotions get the better of them and they go farther than is warranted. It doesn't help that there are a lot of McDojos and bullshido out there in the Asian martial arts as practiced in the US. It's certainly a rather unfortunate meme for our community to be infected with, however.

There's also the curious fact that some people around here are so dismissive of our actual living tradition, classical fencing. I have not begun to wrap my mind around this phenomenon, except to think that it may have to do with guilt-by-association with Olympic fencing.

McBrayer

Two thing's first this is the fourth paragraph from the page you linked.

"The emergence of fencing coincides with the decline of the feudal knight and the appearance of the bourgeois genleman. It is important to remember that fencing is emphatically not a military art. We do not concern ourselves with the use of the sword by soldiers in battle, but rather, we study its use as a civilian weapon for self-defence "on the street" as well as an arbiter of private disputes in the formal duel."

We know that "fencing" was what a knight did, it was his job, that is like saying a Marine infantrymen doesn't know how to use a gun for personal defense.


That aside they say classical fencing goes back 500 year's or to 1506, just about the time the True Rapier was realy coming into vogue, so they are simulating a rapier or smallsword fight with extremely inaccurate replica's of both so the tool's, tactic's and technique's are in no way accurate and will be useless with a historicly accurate rapier simulator and all you learn is timing and distance, which could be learned from any long straight object with a training partner by simply going outside and trying to touch each other.

Like Doebringer say's

" practice is better than art, because your practice will suffice without art, while the art mean's nothing wihtout practice."

Just a few observation's

Jeff