History Channel - "Conquest"

[David Mastro]

Gene,

Does "true" Freestyle or GR wrestling teach arm locks and chokeholds? No, of couse not. Does "true" Sambo teach chokeholds? No.

What is your definition of "true" freestyle and "true" sambo? I ask this because professional freestyle (Lancashire/catch-as-catch-can) most certainly had armlocks and other joint attacks. Chokes were against the rules of professional CACC, but at least some wrestlers were familiar with them. In addition, while sport sambo does not allow chokes, they are, in fact, a part of military sambo.

However, these arts teach the foundations of grappling, namely balance, sensitivity to the opponents motions, the ability to use leverage and the attacker's weight and momentum against him, the ability to throw and takedown, the ability to work effectively on the ground, etc.

Agreed.

It is true that many of the more dangerous elements of combat have been removed from Freestyle and GR wrestling, but the basics are there. Once the person masters, and I mean really masters the basics, the additional techniques such as elbow locks can easily follow. A good example is Matt Furey, who teaches hardcore submission wrestling. Matt is a former collegiate wrestling champion who also is a Shuaijiao (Chinese wrestling) champion as well. He has a website out there but I don't have the hyperlink handy.

His submissions come from professional CACC, which he learned from noted latter-day "shooter" Karl Isatz "Gotch".

Kampfringen is a good system of self-defense, but a GR or Freestyle wrestler with knowledge of armlocks and chokeholds is also a formidable fighter.

Indeed--and the modern HEMA/WMA community could use more skilled wrestlers, judoka, etc.

Best,

David Black Mastro

[David Mastro]

BTW - question for Babylon 5 fans. Was the narrarator of this program the same guy who played the character of "Galen" the technomage on the short-lived but excellent spinoff from B5, "Crusade?" I think it was but cannot be certain.

The Conquest guy is Peter Woodward, the son of Edward Woodward, who starred in such memorable films as The Wicker Man and Breaker Morant.

FWIW.

[David Mastro]

Jay,

That said, there is still a lot to be learned from an Olympic style wrestler. One must remember that the really bad stuff has been taken out of it because it is a sport, not combat.

Actually, it's a combat sport.

Anyway, I'm curious--you say that collegiate wrestlers can be defeated "relatively easily", and you dismiss their standing technique--what about Greco-Roman? How do you think you would fare against someone like Alexander Karelin? I ask this partially because you claim that "the really bad stuff" has been taken out of wrestling, and yet if one is on the receiving end of a suplex, one can be dumped on one's head.

Same thing goes for a Freestyle crotch-lift, actually.

Thoughts?

Peace,

David

[David Mastro]

Jay,

No disagreement there except to say that judo as originally conceived by Kano was NOT a sport. It was corrupted into a sport after WW2, but still retains its nasty combat ways, which you can learn if you do the full range of kata and train with the right instructor.

There was actually always a sport element to judo, from the very beginning. Heck, judo first gained prominence during a tournament--the Tokyo Police Tournament of 1886, where judo was pitted against other jujutsu styles. In addition, the groundbreaking addition of sophisticated ne-waza to judo occured after the tournament between the Kodokan and the Fusen-ryu, circa 1900.

But the problem with the combat sports lies in their inherent rule-based limitations. You fight as you train. In the chaos of combat, the victor prevails because in the flow he spots an opportunity and capitalizes on it instantly. Limited, sports minded training inhibits the combatant's ability to spot and exploit these openings, these moments of weakness. You must recognize the limits of your training and the fact that those limits often arise from artificial rules. Sometimes the insight only comes from a painful experience.

BJJ instructor John Danaher offers an opposing viewpoint to the above:

http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html

Combat sports have been central to training fighters for centuries. The Romans made use of a free-sparring format in their armatura, according to Vegetius. Clearly, there's something to it.

There are of course countless other examples, especially in the HEMA/WMA context. Look at Medieval jousts. Look at the competitions held by the London Masters of Defence, or the German fencing guilds. Look at 19th century English backswording and pugilism.

What combat sports may lack in "realistic completeness" they make up for with the "live" element.

Peace,

David

[Jay Vail]

David, my central thesis here, as it has been in other fora dealing with grappling, is the inherent limitations placed on real combat effectiveness by sports-oriented training. By failing to train certain highly effective techniques, sport wrestlers place themselves at a disadvantage in an all-in contest where were are no limitations -- ie on the street. Collegiate wrestling has purged itself of many effective moves and deemphasizes others (that is, standing throws) so that it is not as flexible and useful as a combat art as it could potentially be. Lacking such training, sport wrestlers are vulnerable to someone who has trained in the nasties and is willing to use them. I say this from practical sidewalk experience with college-style wrestlers who ground the s**t out of me until I stopped playing the game their way. I suggest you pick a few fights in the local bar and see what I mean for yourself. There is nothing like getting pounded to focus the mind on learning what went wrong and what to do about it in the future.

This is not to say that training in sport wrestling is not helpful. As I mentioned in the post above, people I respected a great deal for their martial arts abilities and real combat skills often said that in a tight spot they’d rather have a judo guy or college wrestler at their backs because those guys were often better prepared for real combat than your average karate guy *because* of the “armatura” like preparation of sporting contests -- that is randori or freeplay.

As for “greco-roman” wrestling, personally I question its combative usefulness because of its severe limitations. I would add that it in no way resembles wrestling as actually practiced by the Greeks and the Romans.

As for Mr Karelin, I would be extremely polite to him so as not to provoke him into trying his flying souffle on me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Gene Tausk]

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been busy and really haven't kept up with the forum...


You wrote:
What is your definition of "true" freestyle and "true" sambo? I ask this because professional freestyle (Lancashire/catch-as-catch-can) most certainly had armlocks and other joint attacks. Chokes were against the rules of professional CACC, but at least some wrestlers were familiar with them. In addition, while sport sambo does not allow chokes, they are, in fact, a part of military sambo.

I guess I should have been more specific and stated "sporting-rules" freestyle wrestling and sambo. Freestyle wrestling, as practiced at the HS and collegiate level, and of course the Olympics, do not allow joint locks and strangleholds. Likewise, sport sambo does not allow chokeholds. This is not to say, of course, that sambo practitioners and wrestlers may not learn jointlocks, chokeholds and other nastiness, but in the sports in which they compete, such things are limited by their respective rules.


You/I wrote:

Kampfringen is a good system of self-defense, but a GR or Freestyle wrestler with knowledge of armlocks and chokeholds is also a formidable fighter.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Indeed--and the modern HEMA/WMA community could use more skilled wrestlers, judoka, etc.

Double agreement here.

All the best


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[Gene Tausk]

Jay:

You wrote:

David, my central thesis here, as it has been in other fora dealing with grappling, is the inherent limitations placed on real combat effectiveness by sports-oriented training. By failing to train certain highly effective techniques, sport wrestlers place themselves at a disadvantage in an all-in contest where were are no limitations -- ie on the street.

Yes, of course it is true that by purging itself of certain techniques, sporting systems are limited. However, IMHO, they more than make up for it by allowing full-contact sparring (or wrestling) with the techniques they have. This provides a wrestler with the ability to learn what it is like to use these their techniques in stressful situations. This has been borne out in UHF fights, where Greco-Roman wrestlers like Dan Severn and sambo practitioners like Oleg Taktarov have won matches. In Russia, where UHF matches are popular, sambo practitioners win time and again not because sambo is a superior martial art, but because sambo practitioners know what it is like to fight and fight at full speed.

You wrote:

As for “greco-roman” wrestling, personally I question its combative usefulness because of its severe limitations. I would add that it in no way resembles wrestling as actually practiced by the Greeks and the Romans.

Jay, we have had these discussions before and once again I state that you are, respectfully, completely incorrect. There is nothing like GR wrestling to learn body throws, falling, and the more "spectacular" throws such as hip tosses, fireman's carry and leveraging. A well-trained GR practitione is a formidable opponent who can more than hold his own. The example of Alexander Karelin has already been given, but I would add Dan Severn to this list as well.

Using your reasoning, I can question the combat effectiveness of judo and sambo because of the "severe limitations" placed on their combat techniques (why aren't judo practitioners trained on leglocks? why aren't sambo practitioners trained in chokeholds?) Yet, I think most of us could see that a properly trained judoka or sambist is a formidable opponent.

Next year my ARMA study group will begin to train in fundamental GR wrestling techniques as part of our curriculum and I am confident there will be an increase in my student's abilities.

You wrote:

As for Mr Karelin, I would be extremely polite to him so as not to provoke him into trying his flying souffle on me.

Wise decision. Mr. Karelin is a national hero of Russia and more than capable of taking most people apart with his "limited" wrestling capabilities. Incidentally, he has fought judo, jujutsu, freestyle wrestlers and sambists, who should have a much broader range of techniques, yet has defeated them time and again. Wonder why that is?

Incidentally, the term "Greco-Roman" wrestling was brought about to distinguish traditional European wrestling methods, which did not allow holds and techniques below the waist, from "free for all" wrestling techniques of those durned Americans and uppity British when the two systems were introduced to the modern Olympic games. It used to be known as "French" wrestling.


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[Mike Cartier]

Incidentally, the term "Greco-Roman" wrestling was brought about to distinguish traditional European wrestling methods, which did not allow holds and techniques below the waist, from "free for all" wrestling techniques of those durned Americans and uppity British when the two systems were introduced to the modern Olympic games. It used to be known as "French" wrestling.

This is also my understanding of it, Greco-Roman is neither Greek nor Roman but as Gene says traces its lineage to Norman Wrestling (as opposed to simply French). The Norman connection i think gives the true clue to GR history which IMHO traces its lineage back to the many folkstyle scandinavian and Alpine wrestling styles.

The wrestling of the Greeks was pretty much Freestyle wrestling with chokes and submissions thrown in. What we would call Submission Wrestling today.

excellent Article on Ancient Greek Wrestling

[Jay Vail]

Gene, I don’t disagree that GR wrestling, judo, and sambo are excellent preparation for combat. See my earlier post where I said that my teachers greatly respected the abilities of judoist and wrestlers and preferred them at their backs to your average karateka. Have you not read that?

My point, which I seem to be failing to communicate, is that combat is not sport. Submission wrestling is sport. Someone who fights in combat with a submission/sport mindset can find themselves at a serious disadvantage when faced with someone who fights to kill or maim. This is not to say that the sport wrestler always will find himself at such a disadvantage. He may, for example, know some of the really brutal stuff that can be brought to bear in a serious fight and use them himself. Or he may have such superior skill that when his opponent tries one of those bad things, he can defeat it.

My opinion on this subject is based on real events, in the real world, that took place on the street, not the training hall. Let me give you two examples. They are not the only ones I know of but they will suffice here.

The first involves a woman police officer. She was assaulted at a traffic stop by a 250+ pound guy. I cannot truly say that he was a trained wrestler, but he grabbed her as wrestlers do and tried to grapple with her. She drove a finger in his eye. End of fight. He lost an eye. I know of this event because I personally interviewed her and was tangentially involved in the litigation that followed (the guy sued her for excessive use of force). The point is, if you go immediately to extreme measures while the other guy is in sport wrestling mode and may not be prepared for them, your chances of survival markedly increase.

The second involves a fight between a judo guy and a boxer. It was a stand up challenge fight, pretty rare on the street, but it happens occasionally. This one I personally witnessed. The boxer handled the right as if he was in the ring. He circled his opponent, pummeling him with jabs, looking for his knock out blow. Cut the judo guy’s face up pretty good. After enduring this punishment for a while, the judo guy lost his patience, kicked the boxer in the stomach, and, when the boxer was bent over from the blow, struck him three times in the spine with his elbow. End of fight. The lesson again is that fighting inside a particular sporting box puts a man at a disadvantage when faced with someone willing to go outside the box.

So what I am trying to say to everyone is not that one particular method is superior to another. All of them are good and offer excellent training and preparation -- whether sambo, GR, college wrestling, judo, what have you.

Rather, one must be aware of the limitations that may unconsciously control your fight and that your sport training may not include stuff that is highly effective against what you know.

Best regards, JV

[noah gross]

Jay,
I agree with what you say one hundred percent.
As I was reading the post before yours I was recalling a story about Takamatsu sensei the teacher of Masaki Hatsumi (founder of the Bujinkan)
The story is about a fight he had while in china during the first decade of the 20th century. Fights with regional and village champions were commonplace and there weren’t any rules. In this particular fight with a regional champ Takamtsu was having a hard time, the champ who was very big, had him up in the air and was about to dump him on his head, before this happened Takamatsu pulled out one of the champs eyes, end of fight and story.
No fancy or complicated technique, simply survival reactions.
I think that as you say one should not be trapped by his method of training or style
And would like to add that more importantly one must learn to judge the intentions of those opposing him, is it a drunk just being stupid, is it a mugger willing to kill for your money, is it a person attempting to kill you for some kind of revenge.
In Arma we talk a lot about fighting with intent, I feel that being able to discern the opponent's level of intent is possible and essential more than technique.
It is not a substitute for martial skill, but rather a survival instinct one should hone and develop.

Noah Gross.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

I think alot of this has to do simply with intent and the more you wrestle/grapple whether it be GR, free-style, Judo, Ju-jitsu, or whatever if you are willing to do what you need to do and with the right intent i.e i am going to break his arm, there are alot of technique's that are submission arm bar's that will break an arm with the right intent and it is more a mental game of escalation or de-escalation of a given situation in our Marine hand to hand they did a section on improvised weapon's so if we are disarmed we can us our greatest weapon the one between our ear's and think, someone that is trained in any fighting art if they are willing to put the "rule's" they were trained under aside a boxer could do you great bodily harm if they intentionaly step on your foot and then hit you three or four time's in the face and some of them are willing to do it when they are out of the ring take the case of "Iron" Mike he bit a piece of Evander's ear off, on the street he is a brawler who is highly trained and willing to set aside the "rule's" even in the ring his intent was to win at any cost.

I think alot of this is the age old "is the art better or the practioner", alot of "Martial Art's" are effective when used with killing or maiming intent by a well trained and practiced person who is able to maintain there composure in a given situation one thing i noticed early on in the UFC is alot of the guy's would lose there composure and not use there "Martial Art" training i think that is why Joyce Gracie did so well, i watched him get the snot beat out of him and he kept going for his Gaurd and looking for some sort of Ju-jitsu hold, he was very calm through the whole entire assault, and i am not a fan of Joyce, he did stick to his Martial art and it did work, he "won" alot of match's, i know that WMA doesn't realy deal alot with the mental(mystical) side of Martial art's and i don't think we need to, it is how we weed out those who do ot have the fortitude to fight Lichtenauer said "If you are fearful, never learn any art of fighting" and Fiore said "And so a fearful man is worth less than a woman. If you don't have audacity of heart, all else is missing.", the modern military use's this in that Like the Navy seal's, Green Beret's, Army Ranger's, ther indoctranation is designed more to weed out the one's who cannot maintain there composure in extreme physicaly stressful situation's and would quit thinking and give up, that is the beauty of WMA it does this on it's own when we train with intent.

In MHO

Jeff

[David Mastro]

This is also my understanding of it, Greco-Roman is neither Greek nor Roman but as Gene says traces its lineage to Norman Wrestling (as opposed to simply French).

This would of course explain the French terminology of Greco-Roman wrestling, and it is something that has been brought up time and again on MMA.tv, by myself and others.

[John_Clements]

Core Assumptions and the Exploration of Historical Fencing

Yeah, just the other day a member asked me about the most imortant things to know about grappling and wrestling, and I told him, biting and eye gouging to ge out of a lock or hold.

[Gene Tausk]

Jay:

You wrote:

"Gene, I don’t disagree that GR wrestling, judo, and sambo are excellent preparation for combat. See my earlier post where I said that my teachers greatly respected the abilities of judoist and wrestlers and preferred them at their backs to your average karateka. Have you not read that?

My point, which I seem to be failing to communicate, is that combat is not sport. Submission wrestling is sport. Someone who fights in combat with a submission/sport mindset can find themselves at a serious disadvantage when faced with someone who fights to kill or maim. This is not to say that the sport wrestler always will find himself at such a disadvantage. He may, for example, know some of the really brutal stuff that can be brought to bear in a serious fight and use them himself. Or he may have such superior skill that when his opponent tries one of those bad things, he can defeat it."

I am a little confused about the point you are trying to make here, or even if you are trying to make a point. I think we both agree that there is a completely different mindset from the "sport" wrestler and the person dedicated to doing harm or mayhem. Perhaps one of the best examples of this is the life of Imi Lichtenfeld, the creator of the Israeli H2H system Krav Maga. Imi was a competitive wrestler and boxer in his youth and when he encountered the facist street gangs of what would become Facist Slovakia, he found that there was a dangerous difference between sport fighting and reality combat.

However, he was able to use the foundations of what he learned to create what would eventually be called Krav Maga.

You wrote:

"So what I am trying to say to everyone is not that one particular method is superior to another. All of them are good and offer excellent training and preparation -- whether sambo, GR, college wrestling, judo, what have you.

Rather, one must be aware of the limitations that may unconsciously control your fight and that your sport training may not include stuff that is highly effective against what you know."

OK - once again we are in agreement on this. However, once again, I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. Are you saying don't study wrestling or judo or sambo or whatever because it is not "realistic" or "street" and therefore a waste of time? Or are you saying it is OK to study these systems but to be aware that there are elements which are not included in the curricula because they are either too dangerous or cannot be effectively "scored" or another reason such as this?

I am going to assume that given your background, you are not advocating the former position. If a person's son or daughter is going to learn the basics of any fighting art, then wrestling is certainly necessary and most parents would not encourage their offspring to go to a high school wrestling match where the opponent can carry a knife or have one of his buddies step onto the mat and kick a participant in the head during a match to make it more "realistic." The core principles are pretty much the same for each "system." Learning how to adapt for combat conditions can be applied once the fundamentals are studied.

However, as I have stated previously and where I stand by my statement is that one of the great advantages that students of grappling systems have is that they have an opportunity to go all-out in their competitive arenas and see exactly how to apply what they have learned. Contrast this with many schools of EMA in which students do not learn to spar or fight at all. This makes grappling training, no matter what the "venue," very valuable.


------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene

[Gene Tausk]

Biting and eye-gouging are certainly worthwhile in an all-or-nothing match. However, there are ways to get out of holds or locks that do not require this type of violence and are just as effective and carry the advantage that the person who knows how to escape from a lock or hold also knows how to apply a lock or hold to his opponent and thus can reverse a weak position into a strong one.

In addition, there are cases where individuals are either (a) extremely insensitive to pain or (b) on some kind of a chemical high (stimulant or hallucinogen) in which, believe it or not, getting an eye gouged out does not register, not to mention a bite. However, knowing how to break an arm or cut off the oxygen/blood supply to the brain will render even the most "high" person malleable, or at least render him unconscious or "dis-armed" (hahahaha) and thus, no longer a threat.


--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene