Kicks in Sword Fighting

[Shane Smith]

As a TKD instructor,I have no doubt I can kick hard enough to fold a knee in armor unless the harness is EXCEEDINGLY heavily hinged at that point.All of the armor I have examined would fail the test posed by a stout front thrust kick if the leg was firmly planted at the time of impact.

[TimSheetz]

todd,

Interesting question that I think for safety purposes wil have to stay academic!

I am less concerned how the knee will hold up and more concerned how the sabatons are going to hold up against the long sword.

The problem with kicks is that unless timed well, they bring a sensitive bit of anatomy (the foot) well into a good range for damage from a weapon.. sure your armor may take the long sword.. but what if I have an axe, mace, hammer, buckler... all that changes the chances of throwing a kick and getting away unhurt in the process. I think, and you armored folks out there can confirm or deny this, that armor is going to considerably slow down the execution of a kick while add more force to the actual impact cause of increased mass.

Still, kicks can not be ignored inthe training regimen and certainly are more effective at damaging the opponent than blows with the hands.

[TimSheetz]

Hi Shane,

Interesting. When you are talking about a thrust kick and the armor hinges.. are you referring to a hyperextension to the knee, or more of a knock the knee joint into bending sideways?

How does armor affect the speed at which you can execute this sort of thing? (See my post to Todd S. for some more coments/questions, please).

Thanks!

[Shane Smith]

Tim,
I am speaking of hyper-extending the knee rearward.Maille and greaves make little difference in my speed(at least at first),but I have never tested the speed of that kick in plate as I do not throw it at my sparring buddies with intent due to the inherrent danger to them.I usually just give them a good smack to the midsection or just tag the knee during free-play.

As for the danger of kicks,I see ALL techniques as inherently dangerous to perform.After all,in order to close distance to strike your opponent with the blade,you yourself must come within range of his weapon as well.It's all about knowing the proper time and place. I employ kicks in the circumstances shown in the source texts.That is usually from a grab or a bind of some sort.It is pretty simple to kick while half-swording for example,as both of your weapons spend much time in the bind.A simple hooking of the pommel into the crook of your opponents elbow,and a little tug, and he will be sent lurching to the off-side,opening him up for a full thrust kick or at least a kick to the side of the knee.To attempt a kick from long range like two TKD fighters in an unarmed match would do would be foolish as you seem to be suggesting. I hope this clears up my position on this issue.

I will test the front thrust kicks relative speed in harness and get back to you on that question though I doubt it will be slowed signifigantly.The added mass of the armor may even make up for the small loss of velocity as you suggest.

Best regards...

[TimSheetz]

Shane,

You wrote: "It's all about knowing the proper time and place."

Right on. I guess the 'kickers' I have sparred, very few, didn't know that time and place!:-)

As far as dangerous, I meant that they are, if you don't know WHEN to throw them. I am more concerned about the kicks that are dangerous to sparring partners in real life, though I can tell you are a safe training partner... I think that if you can get a good solid kick to safer non-joint location, we can assume that you could of laid one on the knee.

I am looking forward to hearing the outcome of the timing and speed difference, though I am SURE the results would be more stupendous with the extra mass... I found it to be the case when running into people in maille as compared to none.

I guess I need to work on some kicks...

[Guest]

Certainly, a full harness slows you down some and limits your freedom of movement a little. It also tends to change your center of gravity, usually making it higher than normal due to the weight of the cuirass, haubergon, arms, spaulders, and helm all attached to you above the waist. However, a well made, good fitting harness moves with you quite well and in period, they were a lot lighter than modern replicas. In the lysts, your opponent would be armoured as well, so you would be "even". If you train in armour a lot, you should be able to do nearly anything you could do without it.

As to a kick to the armoured knee, it would certainly be less effective than a kick to an un-armoured one. A fully articulated leg harness with overlapping lames only bends one way, just like your knee, and would resist the hyperextension of a kick to the front of the knee somewhat. Would I want it done to me? Nope. All that force has to go somewhere and it will be transfered to me somehow. I would, at the very least, be knocked off balance, creating an opening for a follow-on attack. I think a kick to the side of the knee would be even more effective, especially the inside of the knee, as the armour would resist this a lot less.

[Guest]

Excellent replies. Thanks Tim, Shane, and Matt. Some people are amazed, that I have met, that Knights and Europeon men-at-arms actually used kicks. Hollywood films have clouded thier minds.

Now not to talk eastern while discussing western but Musashi used shoulder and body thrusts. John Mills, who I train with, applied it on me, not becuase of Musashi but in the belief that the entire body is a weapon to be used when parts can be used. John closed into me, I attempted to bind his weapon, he threw his shoulder into me, disengaged, and got distance between us.

Todd

[BengtAbrahamsson]

Liechtenauer: Mitt gantzen lybe fechten wass du starck gerest tryben.

Tobler's translation: To fight with the entire body,is what you powerfully want to do.

Bengt
EHCG

[Jared L. Cass]

God I'm glad I signed up for this forum! Any way, I've recently purchased a copy of Mark Rectors translation of Hans Talhoffer's "Medieval Combat," (seeing as I'm just starting out in the study of WMA) and I too have noticed plate 12. Being that I'm a ninjutsu practitioner my initial thaought was that it was like our sokuyaku (heel stomp kick). The way we use it is to blast into an opponent and knock him to the ground. Having personally been on the recieving end of this technique, I can testify as to it's ability to not only put a man to the mat, but also compleatly knock the wind from his lungs. Those few precious moments of reorienting the mind and trying to literaly "get one's wind back," are all it would take for the opponent to deliver some form of "coup de gras." (In my case a shin kick to the head)! At our school we've also practiced it on ice wearing sorel boots, snow suits, and all the rest a guy in wisconsin needs to stay warm in the winter. Seeing as I've never had the chance to wear complete armor, I can't say that it would be the same, but I can say that I believe it could work. With many bulky clothing layers, movement is extremely restriced. Heavy boots make it damn near imposible to execute any kicks other than the most basic of front kicks and knee kicks. And a guy is much more likely to have to maintain his footing and grapple (in my opinion the smarter choice in either Feburary or August). Now, from what I've read reguarding armor, armor was designed to provide as much movement as possible. Like you guys said "ain't this more fun than golf!"

[Guest]

Jared, too funny <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Talhoffer's Fechtbuch is an excellent resource to start with. The kick is well used but use it quickly when kicking someone holding a long blade but as you come from a ninjutsu background you know what I mean. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Jared: What ever happened to Stephen Hayes? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Cheers,

Todd Sullivan

[Guest]

<It may exist in traditional Chinese systems also, but I don't know enough about this to comment. >

You are correct, Gene. It is one of the few kicks we do in Wing Tzun, and is quite effective. We normally will target from the hips down, but it works as described in the other posts.

BTW, I just got my copies of Wallerstein and Talhoffer. It's amazing how many of the techniques shown are still in use.

Jim

[Shane Smith]

Todd, Stephen Hayes has a chain of ninpo schools that he is managing now that the ninja craze and the authorship deals that profitted him thereby,are gone.There is one in Chapel Hill NC not too far up the road from me.I had considered training there on a few occasions but ended up going with TKD several years ago as the most practical for me due mainly to local availabilty and affordability(I firmly believe that it's the man that makes any art effective regardless of what art it is).I still think of riding down south to Chapel Hill "just to see" from time to time... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Tim, I suited up in full harness today at our session and can now report with certainty that the harness does NOT slow the delivery of kicks to an appreciable degree.The balance is a bit trickier though as the bodies center of balance creeps upward from the ground because of the heavy armor load slung from the shoulders.Still,kicks are easily performed. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

Thanks Shane!

Did the added mass increase the affects on the target? I realize you were kicking your training partners and probably didn't give it all you had... (maybe they should answer this question?:)

Did you kick an inanimate object to test the difference between unarmored and armored force against the target?

I am assuming we are talking about a stomping sort of kick: leading with the bottom of the foot? Did you get to do any jumping, flying spinning whirly-gig of death kicks? <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Comments from the victims woud be a great addition to this discussion I think.

Lastly.. thanks for the warning! [Note to self: watch out for Shane kicking]

Best,

Tim Sheetz

[Guest]

Hi, first post. I do a bit of stick fighting and one of the Dog Brothers (SaltyDog) is a teacher of krabi krabong, the Thai weapons art. The Dog Brothers have put out a video on krabi krabong as it applies to stick fighting. Salty Dog shows how to blend the sticks and the kicks together. On the front kick, he advises to kick chest high. Chest high pushes your opponent back and stops his attack. If you kick low, it bends him forward. If your opponent is in the middle of a strike, the forward bend may help him complete it.