Rasslin' with Fiore de' Liberi

[Bob Charron]

Hey Tony,

Yes, there are places all over the text where he describes one of the options for the ligadure (in fact in their definition in the prologue) as "binding the arm". This binding, accompanied by other statements such as "don't bother trying to get away from me" or "I will hold you here to suffer more" pretty clearly indicate a hold as one of the options.

This is available in any of the translations, including the quite readily available two or three translations of the Pissani-Dossi text on line.

We must be take care in making any general statements about the techniques, and we must derive our knowledge and understanding of them directly from the text. To say they always went in to kill and maim does not take into consideration a study of the culture of the time, nor the specific instructions and options laid out in the primary text.

And, every master may have significantly different approaches. Even among the German masters, the idea of which blow is best, how a guard is executed, etc. differ significantly.

And finally Tony, I'm really glad that you asked the question that should be asked concerning anything having to do with WMA - "What does the text say?" If the instructor cannot answer that question and quote the text, then they must admit it is an interpretation. If they haven't read the text then they are most likely just making it up

[Tony_Indurante]

Bob,

Thanks for the reply. I don't study Fiori at all, so anything having to do with his text is new to me. I know that the "always maim and kill" was a broad generalization- like I said, common sense tells you it couldn't always be only about maiming and killing. But it isn't something you see written in the manuals explicitly (with the caveat that I have not read a lot of the manuals available).

Which actually brings up my main point of inquiry- looking at the cultures and time periods, and the time seperating then from know- how much do our modern sensibilities affect the way we interpret the source materials? Do we read things into the words that were never intended, etc... which is why I was looking for specific quotes from the actual manuals. Thanks for providing it.

As for being able to quote the actual texts and provide answers based on these same texts, well, your preachin' to the choir here- the only proviso I would add would be that you also have to be able to do these self-same techniques. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Excellent points Tony and Bob.

As if "preachin' to the choir" weren't enough, I feel compelled to further add to the sermon here. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would point out that the Bible( a well known text to be sure) has existed more or less in it's current form for hundreds of years now as well and even though EVERYONE is reading the same words, there are still a multitude of interpretations being offered ranging from the mundane to the most bizzare...and this when the text is already available in the common language with no translation being further required in modern day! There are literally as many differing interpretations as their are men doing the interpreting! How much more difficult and delicate it is then to quote text which may(or may not) be translated properly from the old German or Italian as "proof" of the validity of our interpretations.It is absolutely "evidence" but not quite "proof". There is a definite distinction between these two concepts I think.

In the end,being able to quote verse is only half the battle and unfortunately,when it comes to these arts of ours,the guys that DO know for sure aint talking and haven't done so for hundreds of years.We're involved in a tricky business here and with that in mind,we must ever be open to the fact that our interpretation no matter how well-reasoned in our own sight,may just be dead wrong no matter how much reading we do.As you guys suggest, only scholarly research of the source-texts COMBINED with earnest work at the hilt gives us even a meager confidence in the inherent "accuracy" of our interpretations.

[Bob Charron]

Hey Shane,

Well, the Bible is an interesting case study. Because the original was written in two languages (Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek) and since then has become a multi-tiered translation through Latin and onward, it can be more consistently understood linguistically by experts working from the original language. Once we get into allegories and proverbs, then that's an entirely different story. If the original Hebrew says: "Thou shalt not kill," that's pretty straightforward

The same here with the words of the Fior di Bataglia with regard to which options are available to you from the ligadure. It says you may bind the arms, break them, or throw the opponent to the ground. That's three options, and pretty clear-cut.

As to physical techniques you have an excellent point. The underlying principles of the system must be understood by careful reading of the original text, and diligent study of the aesthetics of the culture the techniques came from. These can be excellent guides when coupled with the text and illustrations of the treatise. It takes years to do this, and I'm only just beginning the process (I'm on the 20 year plan at least), but you can become more and more certain based on academic argument supported by multiple supporting points. This is the end-goal.

I always look carefully at other interpretations and try to learn from them, but I try to be diligent in assuring the individual technique fits the overal model of the system with regard to mechanics, power generation, ideas of tempo and distance, etc.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Chang Tung-Sheng, who was the (now departed) grandmaster of Shuai-Chiao did say that one way to set up a throw was to first hit your opponent, giving you time to properly "set up" your throw.

[richmooney]

Hiya!

Actually I would use this as an arm breaker. The right hand
could be used to distract the opponent with a testes squeeze,
or an inner thigh "Donkey Bite" grab. After the arm break, the rest is sauce for the goose as they say.

Furthermore, the body mechanics in trying to actually lift someone up to throw them from that position is very detrimental to the arm, neck and lower back of the defender.

In the style I do, we call this particular technique "Prop Up the Pole #1" (there are 3 variants)

hope this helps.

Rich Mooney

[noah gross]

Hello Bob,
you wrote:
Well, the Bible is an interesting case study. Because the original was written in two languages (Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek) and since then has become a multi-tiered translation through Latin and onward, it can be more consistently understood linguistically by experts working from the original language. Once we get into allegories and proverbs, then that's an entirely different story. If the original Hebrew says: "Thou shalt not kill," that's pretty straightforward
Actually the Hebrew version should be translated as thou shall not murder, which in my opinion makes a difference, when contemplating killing somone, that is if one needs to.
Noah Gross