NEW Wallerstein/Vadi article online

[Jared L. Cass]

Right, Tim. Those knives designed as cutters/choppers will have alot better chance of hacking through/cutting off things and/or breaking bones. But the daggers shown in the manuals, roundels and in later works, the standard double edged diamond cross section daggers, are desighned for the thrust (as you know). They can still cut, but not all that extensivly. These are the ones we see being grabbed.

Question for those ARMA members who've downloaded the gigantic messer manual of Leckuchner (I think that's the one at least): are there blade grabs in there as well? With a dial up connection, I haven't the patience to down load it, but in other messer stuff I've seen, there aren't any blade grabs. Controlling the weapon arm and grabbing at the hilt-yes. But are there grabbs like those illistrated for the rondel and longsword? If there aren't, maybe this is due to the geometry of the messer... basically that of a bowie/kukri: wide wedge shaped cross section? Difficult to grab strongly without cuting off digits/gashing the palm.

What do you know/think?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

*edited to change Lebkommer to Leckuchner*

[Casper Bradak]

I don't know about Lekuchner's, but I've seen messer blade grabs in several manuals, I'd bet they're in his too.
I haven't seen any as a general fight from the half sword, or static guards from the half sword, but quite a few for specific techniques. So, not nearly to the usefulness or extent of a pointy or narrower straight sword, but definitely useful.

[Jared L. Cass]

Cool. Thanks Stew.

This is really going out on a limb, but maybe that partially explains the hand behind the back posture. Not just to remove the hand as a target, but sort of as memory device. Something like, "To help you to remember to avoid grabbing at the blade of the messer, like we train to do with the dagger and longsword, keep the off hand out of the way as a reminder that it's not as safe to do so against a blade of this width and shape."

With the messer half swording, does it apear the blade is supported sort of in the web of the hand? Also, with the disarms, is it the disarm sort where both blades are parallel to each other? I just tried this out with two bowies here. With one blade being edge up, and the other blade edge down, it made it much easier (safer, not as likely to cut) to hold onto. More like grabbing a rectangular chunk of steel rather than a single wedge shaped blade (if that makes sense). In other words, by the two blades being tightly against each other with one edge facing up and one edge facing down, the grab is assisted by a thick unsharpened edge on both sides. There for negating the effect of the messer (bowie) edge geometry.

"Hans Heim might be able to comment a little more extensively)."

Yep, I'd like to hear what he knows as well <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jeffrey Hull]

Intriguing subtlety there, JC &amp; SF. Thanks, JH.

[Casper Bradak]

When I practice techniques with my replica messer at the half sword, it seems to work pretty well if you don't even use your thumb. Hard to explain, but it you place your palm on the flat, wrap your fingers over the false edge and squeeze it that way, it gives you good point control and lets you press the edge, and perform all the techniques I've seen with messers that way. It makes it pretty easy to defend with the flat as well.

[Jay Vail]

A case in point I think would be eye-witness accounts of gurkhas fighting in WWII using their Kukri knives. They would first cut the hand/forearm of their opponent and then hack the neck. No stabbing at all.

Oh, yes. I had forgotten about those. There are also a references to the Bowie being used for cuts. So there are times when the knifer will cut rather than thrust.

[Stuart McDermid]

I wouldn't call a Kukri a knife. I think it is a machete.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

I think it's a hatchet in disguise <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
But just like with swords, form follows function. The whole balance of cut/thrust/slice depending on the blade form.

[Jake_Norwood]

Joachim-

Do you have a image laying around that I could see?

Jake

[JeanryChandler]

Interestingly, the Kurkri (Gurkha Knife) is a direct descendent of the Greek Falcata / Kopis, which was introduced into India by the troops of Alexander the Great.

Functionally the inward blade does work a lot the same way as a hatchet. Another somewhat less famous descendant is the Turkish Yatgahan (sp). You also see the same shape in outher South Asian countries and in the pacific, often used as a sacrificial knife.

I want to make a realistic one to spar with but I don't know how the weight breaks down, having never handled a real weapon in the family. I assume they are blade heavy and somewhat akward in use.

JR

[Randall Pleasant]

I want to make a realistic one to spar with but I don't know how the weight breaks down, having never handled a real weapon in the family. I assume they are blade heavy and somewhat akward in use.

The one's I have handled were blade heavy but they were not akward at all. During a cut your wrist does not have to bend, thus they seem to want to chop all by themselves. Of course, I'm not an expert so take my comments with a few grains of salt. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

I've handled a few as well. A combination of wide blade for the necessary mass to cut with the edge forward of the knuckles to improve the impact like an axe make for a mean cutter. Definitely handles differently though, less agile in the point of course, without the narrowness to be good at getting in armour, but it's all a trade off. Obviously good for the environment it evolved in, though it may not have gotten you far in 15th century europe.
As long as your sparring version had a weighty blade balance, and the forward edge and point angle, it should be as close as any padded weapon gets.

[david welch]

Just to try it, Sunday night after Southern Knights and Ron Harris's dagger class, Donna and I tried some disarms with my every day carry knife

I carry a SOG PE II. Open it is 10.75"


I keep it shaveing razor sharp, and had no trouble doing disarms on it, and later Jake Norwood held it (tightly) for me and it was still easy to do a disarm (static. Jake wasn't trying to heep me from doing it, just holding it out for me to practice on.) by grabbing the blade.

[leam hall]

"And we all know you can safely grip sharp blades."

Finally got enough time to work out a semi-proper method for test cutting. The wife is out of town so I don't have to explain any more odd behavior; I thawed the keilbasa, found some old cloth, and set to.

Since the conversation hit on several things, I want to first answer what my test is *not*. I do not dispute the increased capability of a thrust over a cut, nor do I dispute the preference of a bigger blade over a knife. The specific question started talking about half-knifing, and Casper's comment above struck me as not quite right.

There are two times you can grab a knife. First, if you are holding it, second if someone else is holding it. With the former you have more control over the action, with the latter, less.

The question seems to be if you grab a knife blade can you get cut with it? My concern is that combat is not a time to do a lot of thinking about fine motor control, it seems unwise to have to grab a blade and make sure I'm applying the right amount of pressure and keeping my movements with the blade. If you grab someone else's blade they can flick or twist it a bit and draw the sharp edge on the insides of your fingers. If it's your own hand on the blade you have more control until you hit something, something hits you, or you lose attention to it because of something else.

In testing the idea, I tried to slice a thawed keilbasa with our largest knife. They have not been sharpened since we got them last year, so it's not a "razor" thing. It cut through the keilbasa with no problem. I both held it on the counter and held the keilbasa in my hand so the resistance wasn't absolute.

Casper also said "Slicing with knives is next to useless in combat, or even vs. clothes."

From the section of the blade nearest my hand it took less than 3 inches to slice through a medium weight sweatpant cloth and do damage to the keilbasa, even when I was holding both in my hands.

I would not suggest grabbing the blade of a knife, no matter who is holding it. If you need to gain control, do so at the handle.