No clothing grabs in wrestling.

[Axel Pettersson]

I have run into the same problem, so I bought a cas iberia gambeson. it is a fake gambeson, it's not thick and does not provide any protection in weapon sparring. It is however not very warm, and very resistant to tear and wear, more or less a european Gi. I cut open the armpits as they restrict movement some, and use a belt to make a closer fit, and it works wonders. Im not very much into dressing up like a fairy either, but this one looks OK actually.

If that gambeson was made specifically for grappling then of course I would be completely behind it, but if you have to cut the armpits to move freely, then the seams will be too weakened to withstand throws that require sleeve grabs.

You would think that, but the gambeson is actually made with the armpits patched up with pieces of the same material, so there are no open seams at all if you remove said pieces (imagine a regular gambe with open armpits and closed seams, and then someone adds a piece of cloth, probably for aestethic reasons). I have used it for two years, no damage whatsoever.

[JeffGentry]

I have run into the same problem, so I bought a cas iberia gambeson. it is a fake gambeson, it's not thick and does not provide any protection in weapon sparring. It is however not very warm, and very resistant to tear and wear, more or less a european Gi. I cut open the armpits as they restrict movement some, and use a belt to make a closer fit, and it works wonders. Im not very much into dressing up like a fairy either, but this one looks OK actually.

If that gambeson was made specifically for grappling then of course I would be completely behind it, but if you have to cut the armpits to move freely, then the seams will be too weakened to withstand throws that require sleeve grabs.

I'd also like to find something in the ARMA color scheme (red jacket, black pants). Until someone starts manufacturing double-woven grappling gambesons, I still think that a red Sambo jacket with red belt and black BJJ/Judo pants is the way to go.

David

I went and looked at Sambo jacket's on the internet I think it is a good idea, they come in red, black, blue, and white.

I wear the black fencing pant's from museum replicas and a red sambo jacket would be the ticket, you could do a black belt or a leather belt, I realy think this is a good idea.


Jeff

[RayMcCullough]

I wonder how easy it would be to die a gi the correct colors.

[David_Knight]

I wonder how easy it would be to die a gi the correct colors.

Hmmm. My limited experience with fabric dyes suggests that it would be fairly easy to do, but the colors would fade quickly. Also, unless the gi was made for Judo/BJJ, it would be a waste. The gi would need to be double-woven; a regular karate gi wouldn't hold up well.

[Gene Tausk]

I wonder how easy it would be to die a gi the correct colors.

Hmmm. My limited experience with fabric dyes suggests that it would be fairly easy to do, but the colors would fade quickly. Also, unless the gi was made for Judo/BJJ, it would be a waste. The gi would need to be double-woven; a regular karate gi wouldn't hold up well.

I've been incredibly busy so haven't had time to respond to this, but quick 2 second note to support David's contention to use sambo jackets. They are meant for hard gripping and throwing and the color scheme works well.

[David_Knight]

I've been incredibly busy so haven't had time to respond to this, but quick 2 second note to support David's contention to use sambo jackets. They are meant for hard gripping and throwing and the color scheme works well.

And the jackets come with matching red belts (traditional Sambo doesn't used a colored belt ranking system) so we wouldn't project the wrong McDojo image by all giving ourselves black belts.

Jeff - The problem with leather belts is that the buckles could catch or cause injury, so they probably aren't the best for training, especially on expensive mats.

[Stewart Sackett]

My one reservation about the use of a Gi is how collar chokes might change the dynamics of Ringen.

On the other hand it wouldn't be hard to train without allowing chokes (they weren't common in the figthbooks anyway) or (the solution ARMA Portland seems to be gravitating toward) put a rondel on everyone's belt & just stab the guy while his arms are engaged applying the choke.

[Jaron Bernstein]

My one reservation about the use of a Gi is how collar chokes might change the dynamics of Ringen.

On the other hand it wouldn't be hard to train without allowing chokes (they weren't common in the figthbooks anyway) or (the solution ARMA Portland seems to be gravitating toward) put a rondel on everyone's belt & just stab the guy while his arms are engaged applying the choke.

If I may quote Di Grassi (pg 51) here: "A man may after another manner take advantage of the cloak which the enemy wears, by taking with one hand both sides of it, near the collar: which both sides being strongly held, cause the cloak to be a ginne or snare about the enemy's neck, the which ginne being violently held, and plucked with one hand, he may so forcibly strike him with the other on the face or visage, that he will go near hand to break his neck."

Try that with a t-shirt. Sounds a lot like what EMA or BJJ might call a....gi choke.

[David_Knight]

This is a crudely rendered mockup of what I had in mind:



Muhammad Industries sells Sambo uniforms and takes custom orders. If enough people are interested, it may be worthwhile to contact them about producing an ARMA-specific package (red jacket with logo, red belt, black pants).

[Stewart Sackett]

My one reservation about the use of a Gi is how collar chokes might change the dynamics of Ringen.

On the other hand it wouldn't be hard to train without allowing chokes (they weren't common in the figthbooks anyway) or (the solution ARMA Portland seems to be gravitating toward) put a rondel on everyone's belt & just stab the guy while his arms are engaged applying the choke.

If I may quote Di Grassi (pg 51) here: "A man may after another manner take advantage of the cloak which the enemy wears, by taking with one hand both sides of it, near the collar: which both sides being strongly held, cause the cloak to be a ginne or snare about the enemy's neck, the which ginne being violently held, and plucked with one hand, he may so forcibly strike him with the other on the face or visage, that he will go near hand to break his neck."

Try that with a t-shirt. Sounds a lot like what EMA or BJJ might call a....gi choke.

Certainly there were chokes & certainly a choke using a cloak or a gambeson could readily be adapted to a Gi (or even a T-shirt). I just tend to be a little hesitant to change a technology when a technique is so reliant upon it. There are people in ARMA who can say “This is how a technique feels with a waster or with a padded training sword but it feels this way with Steel”. I think that a Gi is a good practical option for training both Ringen in general & in particular techniques that involve grabbing cloth. I don’t think the difference between a Gi & a gambeson would lead to different qualities of fighters but I do think it could skew historical interpretation (however slightly). We’re never going to be perfect in our resurrection of these arts but it helps to admit where ideas & technology from outside the study period are an influence on our methods; like compensating for a minor cross current when rafting.

P.S. I typed this rather hastily, I’m not sure I’m making much sense & will clarify my point if anyone has questions.

[JeffGentry]

David

I would be in on the sambo jacket's, I went to the website you did myself and thought the same thing wish JC would ring in on this to see what he say's.

I am also wondering f a doublet or gambeson might not be a bout the same price though.

Stewart

I understand what your saying about about the Gi, if you look at alot of the art work a gambeson is close to the fit of a Gi, again though what is the diffrence in cost.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Certainly there were chokes & certainly a choke using a cloak or a gambeson could readily be adapted to a Gi (or even a T-shirt). I just tend to be a little hesitant to change a technology when a technique is so reliant upon it. There are people in ARMA who can say “This is how a technique feels with a waster or with a padded training sword but it feels this way with Steel”. I think that a Gi is a good practical option for training both Ringen in general & in particular techniques that involve grabbing cloth. I don’t think the difference between a Gi & a gambeson would lead to different qualities of fighters but I do think it could skew historical interpretation (however slightly). We’re never going to be perfect in our resurrection of these arts but it helps to admit where ideas & technology from outside the study period are an influence on our methods; like compensating for a minor cross current when rafting.

P.S. I typed this rather hastily, I’m not sure I’m making much sense & will clarify my point if anyone has questions.

There is certainly a difference between steel, plastic, padded and wood. Abrazare in t-shirts vs. jackets are very different creatures. My first choice for that reason would be to use gambesons.

[Stewart Sackett]

Having voiced my concerns I'd also like to say, based on David's mockup, that an ARMA gi would look really cool & I'd proudly wear it to Jiu-jitsu competitions & the like.

[David_Knight]

I've contacted Muhammad Industries and they are willing to supply us with embroidered, double-woven 900-gram ARMA ringen uniforms for an extremely good price. Like, ridiculously good. If you are at all interested, please contact me via PM. The more orders, the more bargaining leverage I might have.

[Mike Cartier]

ARMA jammies !!

count me in but i better get me a Black Belt with it