Western Boxing

[Gene Tausk]

Yes, Mike, we are communicating on completely different wavelengths. Other than this, I disagree with everything else you wrote in your "proof" (which, by the way, is a perfect example of how someone with no real world experience is trying to explain something using academics as a cover. You remind me of a friend of mine who became a millionaire at 30 in his business without a college degree and was once lectured by an "expert" in marketing with a Ph.D. who never worked a day in his life as to why my friend's business would not succeed. )

Fighting is based on five principles, each of equal importance: timing, distance, technique, perception and attitude. If you don't have one of these principles, no matter how good you are in the other principles, you will be a deficient fighter. Your "logical" argument that because boxing "only" makes use of the hands makes it inferior to other fighting systems ignores the fact that boxing training and boxers teaches and incorpoates all five principles. Boxers may have only two "weapons" but they know how to use these weapons, the proper range to use them, the footwork and bodywork necessary to place themselves in the ideal situation to use the weapons and, as stated previously, the will to use these weapons and the ability to take a punch. This makes them effective fighters.

This conversation is going nowhere. You need to spar with a boxer. I will not hold my breath, however, that you will actually get around to doing so since you already "know" so much. Like I said, I don't know from where you get this "knowledge," but it certainly wasn't given to you from a boxer.

Oh, and let me leave you with a little tidbit of information as well. The person who is responsible for developing training programs for H2H combat in the U.S. Army, Sgt. Matt Larsen, has a great deal of respect for boxing. I had the privilege of meeting and talking with Sgt. Larsen at our International Gathering and we discussed this matter. Now, Sgt. Larsen has a great deal of fight experience, both practical and theoretical. So, when he praises boxing, he might know something about it. Of course, once again, I wouldn't dare to compare Sgt. Larsen's knowledge with your own.

One last item. Sgt. Larsen said, and I agree with him, that what separates a warrior from a non-warrior is that a warrior has a willingness to close with the enemy. Someone else on these forums (unfortunately, I forget who) paraphrased this when he said that a figher has a willingness to fight. This is also correct. Boxers are trained and willing to close with the enemy and boxers most certainly have a willingness to fight.

As I said, this conversation is going nowhere and will be terminated. Spar with a boxer (Golden Gloves or better) and then come and talk to me. I won't hold my breath.


------------------>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Mike Chidester]

Okay, Gene, we'll drop it. Neither of us is making headway. I'll make you a counter-offer, though. Rather than my going and fighting an expert boxer, which would prove nothing no matter who wins, why don't you take your golden gloves boxer and put him in the UFC? When he wins the title, I'll be convinced that boxing is the "ultimate martial art," as you and Kat wish us to believe.

[KatherineJohnson]

Okay, Gene, we'll drop it. Neither of us is making headway. I'll make you a counter-offer, though. Rather than my going and fighting an expert boxer, which would prove nothing no matter who wins, why don't you take your golden gloves boxer and put him in the UFC? When he wins the title, I'll be convinced that boxing is the "ultimate martial art," as you and Kat wish us to believe.

Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that boxing is the "ultimate martial art" or anything even close to that. (In fact, a little further up the page I was also touting the effectiveness of grappling)

It is extremely effective, however, and probably one of the best "stand up" striking arts taught today. It's also becoming increasingly used in MMA competition.
In fact, One of my instructors won his 3rd professional MMA fight last night using almost nothing but his boxing skills, he also won his 2nd fight using almost nothing but boxing. So yes, boxing works even when kicks, elbows, knees, takedowns, etc, are allowed.

While a pure boxer would probably not become a UFC champion (and why would he want to? Boxers make millions of dollars a fight, MMA fighters may make a couple hundred thousand, if that) this certainly does not mean boxing is ineffective.

Also, the only reason a high level pure boxer would not be successful in MMA is because of grappling, not because kicks and knees and elbows are allowed.


There are two ways to be a good fighter. You become well rounded so that you can take your opponent out of their game and make them play yours.

Or, you specialize and become so good (or at least much better then your competition) in your chosen phase that taking you out of it becomes extremely difficult.

A good boxer is an excellent example of the latter.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Good discussion folks. This is my sense of it. An arts effectiveness has less to do with its tools than in how your train it. A western boxer, muay thai fighter, MMA fighter, BJJ stylist or (one would hope) an ARMA swordfigher use very different tools. What makes Gene's hypothetical golden gloves western boxer so good is not that he punches. So what, everyone punches. It is their the level of training, conditioning (the dreaded f word), realistic sparring and the like. Could they stomp us in the ring (well maybe not Kat, but me certainly <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )? Sure. Put them up against an equally skilled Muay Thai fighter or MMA fighter and you would likely have a fair match, because at that level those arts also train in the same manner (albeit with different techniques). If we spent as much time in the gym with our swords as a pro boxer does with the heavy bag and everday sparring.......

[Mike Chidester]

I agree completely Jaron (and, to a lesser extent, Katherine). Boxing will make you a good striker, definitely. It will also teach you good fundamentals to apply to fighting. But, if you take those skills and apply them to a more complete martial art, you'll do even better. Add grappling to your striking repertoire and you'll be a more effective fighter than if you have no technique once you leave your feet. You're not going to be able to end every fight with a good punch.

That's all I was trying to say. Unfortunately, my diplomacy goes downhill fast when I'm being insulted. *shrug* Something I need to work on.

[Mike Cartier]

actually what ou guys are talking about is the phase theory of combat as espoused by BJJ.
1.Free movement phase
2. clinch phase
3.ground phase

A ground fighter prefers the ground phase a boxer or kickboxer prefers the the free movement phase a judoka or greco-roman wrestler prefers the clinch phase.
MMA Fighters try ot train all 3 phases but most martial artists only work one phase or maybe 2.
If someone out skills you in one phase you need to go to another phase away from thier strength. Many people saw the early UFC's as the triumph of ground fighting over other styles but in fact it was the phase theory of combat triumphing over the range theory of combat which had predominated under the primarily striking styles which made up most of the martial arts. The ground phase is also the hardest phase to learn as we are not naturally comfortable on our backs.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Mike,

In defense of our golden gloves boxer here, if you can't get past his jab and uppercut (as Gene seems to be saying), you don't get to choke him out. Instead he shatters your jaw. So, you need to train with the same intensity, time and regular sparring (even if not in western boxing) that the boxer does to be able to deal with him successfully. That is all I am saying. That is why I would call a skilled muay thai fighter, a BJJ guy or a western boxer fair match for the other. Not based on their technique, but their training methods. If they fight each other enough...you end up with today's MMA fighter when as you say, they must learn competence in other ranges.

I someday hope that we may revive ringen to the level (certainly the techniques are there) where we can compete in that arena. But it will take someone with more time and talent than me to do that. In the short term I suggest we take up Genes suggestion, grab a friendly local boxer (let me stress here friendly) and work on our ringen with them. Everyone benefits. He gets to fight a people who wrestle as well as hit and we get to feel what real striking and conditioning are like when it hits you on the nose. Even if we don't become boxers in our ringen, we can learn much from them and should certainly respect and make use of their skills and training methods.

Think about in sword terms. Why do ARMAteers do very well against other WMA groups, on aggregate, in actual sparring? Everyone can read Meyer or Fiori. The masters texts are public domain. IMO we do better in that arena because we actually spar and train in earnest to a greater degree. Same goes for any martial art really IMO

I have watched Aaron Pynenberg's skill increase dramatically in the times that I have met him. Why is that? He does the same cuts as everyone else. The answer lies in the training program he does (which he shared at the August Texas event) which involves lots of quality time with a waster and frequent sparring.

Take away the waster and the same applies to unarmed arts. Both BJJ and other grappling arts have the same arm bar. But the BJJ guys do better IMO mainly because they roll all the time.

It ain't the boxing that makes the boxer good. It is the way the boxer trains that gives him the edge.

Anyhow that is my 4 cents. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Joachim Nilsson]

Jaron Bernstein wrote:

I someday hope that we may revive ringen to the level (certainly the techniques are there) where we can compete in that arena.

This discussion is starting to sound eerily familiar. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

In the short term I suggest we take up Genes suggestion, grab a friendly local boxer (let me stress here friendly) and work on our ringen with them. Everyone benefits. He gets to fight a people who wrestle as well as hit and we get to feel what real striking and conditioning are like when it hits you on the nose. Even if we don't become boxers in our ringen, we can learn much from them and should certainly respect and make use of their skills and training methods.

More than once I've thought about giving my old kickboxing coach a call to get to spar his students using ringen. I'm not too sure he'd want me loose among them though.

"Funny" anecdote here now: I was out drinking with the rest of my ARMA Gimo crew this past friday. Ran into a group of Americans from West Virginia who are here visiting the local Sandvik factory. One of them turned out to be an old wrestler, and he seemed really eager to get the opportunity to "get down and dirty" when I breifly mentioned my own training. Would be really interesting if I could set something up with him and just do some grappling before he leaves on the 22nd of November. That'll maybe teach that friend of his that you shouldn't walk up to strange men in a foreign country and start pestering them about imaginary derogatory statements being made. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

With the new indoor facilities and nice mat's i want to realy start doing some serious ringen am schwert, unarmed, and dagger, stuff after the knee surgery and rehab. i got big plan's for our group when the knee get's fixed.

Those boxing glove's of mine are going to be put to good use in ringen training.


Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines also. You can wrestle as much as you like, but the dynamic changes when someone is trying to punch you is a good and credible manner. Fortunately we have a resident viking to beat us up.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[KatherineJohnson]

If you guys want to come down and visit sometime I'll be happy to throw some punches at you <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Or maybe I can head up there in the future.

[Gene Tausk]

"Okay, Gene, we'll drop it. Neither of us is making headway. I'll make you a counter-offer, though. Rather than my going and fighting an expert boxer, which would prove nothing no matter who wins, why don't you take your golden gloves boxer and put him in the UFC? When he wins the title, I'll be convinced that boxing is the "ultimate martial art," as you and Kat wish us to believe"


Mike:

When did I EVER make the claim that boxing was the "ultimate martial art" in this thread? Go through and find my posts and tell me when.

I reviewed my posts and I do not recall ever making such a claim. Boxing is not the "ultimate" martial art. In fact, I believe I even stated that thanx to MMA competitions, the idea of an "ultimate" martial art has been demonstrated to be nonsense (as if most of us did not know this already).

Now, either demonstrate where I made this claim or retract your statement. If you make a post on these forums, you had better be prepared to either back up your claim or make a retraction.

BTW - don't play games and try to wiggle around with the definition of "ultimate." The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word, among others (and especially for use in this context) as "final, greatest, supreme, utmost, paramount."

Now, find on this thread where I ever made the statement that boxing is the "ultimate" martial art. If you cannot find where I made the statement, and I certainly could not, then issue a retraction.


-------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Gene Tausk]

Mike:

You hit the nail on the head with this post. Certainly each unarmed combat "system" has a focus on one of these three areas and MMA attempts to focus on all three. IMHO, a good fighter will of course try and learn all three phases but will probably feel most comfortable in one of the three phases. An exceptional figher will feel comforable in two.

I had heard quite some time ago that the "phases" of combat were: long: weapons, medium: kicking, short: punching, and intimate: grappling.

However, I like the definitions that you and MMA provide. Once again, IMHO, these are more accurate.


---------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[M Wallgren]

In the fechtbuch they call it zufechten, Arbeit and Krieg or something, but I may misstake me here!

But as I remeber Joachim explain it to me when I was a newbee a couple of years ago it was something like that.

Anyway, I agree with Gene!

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hye Kat

I was thinking that i would definately head down your way once i get the knee fixed and have some rehab since i was unable to go at it with you last time.

Anytime you want to head a little north we would be more than happy to have you.


Jeff