Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

[Bill Tsafa]

Litcheneur is quoted as saying "fight with strength" he says to use the "whole body, the arms are weak" he also says to "fight strength with weakness and weakness with strength". He clearly believed that stength played some key roll.

I agree that weight training will not improve your actual skill with the sword. Without skill you are just a target. But among equally skilled opponents, strength will become an issue if one chooses to close in and grappel. Grappling is a significant part of Licheneurs teachings. There is a reason he dedicated a whole section to it. He covered it with sword and openhanded. It is part of his larger system of fighting.

A skilled swordsmen should be able to avoid, deflect or block any blows or faints of his adversary and vise-versa. Unlike sport fencing, where the strikes originate from the longpoint guard, in longsword fighting and sword/shield, the strikes originate further back and your opponent can see them comming. Strength is not everything, but in my opinion it does matter in a duel with longswords or sword/shield to a significant degree. It may just be the tie breaker.

[Brian Hunt]

Hill Bill,

got to disagree with you on sport fencing. The attacks generally come from either 3rd or 4th not longpoint.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Bill Tsafa]

got to disagree with you on sport fencing. The attacks generally come from either 3rd or 4th not longpoint.

I did not know the proper fencing term. I have only studied the Lichenuer termanology and translations. I am learning saber fencing just now. The instructor just told me how to hold the saber, attack and parry, not the name of the position. So I related it to longpoint becuase it is the best I could do.

What I ment to say is that in an attack from 3ed and 4th position, your opponent generaly gives less warning in sport fencing vs. longsword. A longsword strike starts from Roof, Ox, Plow, or Fools guard. The longsword is heavier and can not just be flicked from the wrist as in fencing. Thus it is more easy to avoid/ deflect/ block. I think close fighting and grappeling becomes decisive when the skill is equal, unless niether person wants to get close.

Thanks for clearing that up Brian.

I also posted some pictures on the website for the purpose of showing what I mean by 90 degree angles in the joints. Notice the angle of the knee and elbow joints.

[jeremy pace]

he also says to "fight strength with weakness and weakness with strength".

Not to be argumentative here, but i hate when people train out of context. Just teaches bad habits. I believe what is meant by this, and there is some debate if you take the time to look, is strength vs weak in the bind or reacting to attacks. As in, your opponent tries to bind hard so you let him with weakness to gain leverage and better positioning.... swordsmens way of "rolling with it."

I agree that strength can help you win a fight, but real power comes from quick precise strikes and if you bulk up too much you are just gonna slow down. You need flexability and adaptability to win. (hate to do this guys...) Look at Bruce Lee for example. He was considered to be pound for pound one of the strongest men in the world. Did he weight train? Sure, but he always claimed his strength came from speed and leverage. One inch punch anyone? Infamous side kick that could lift a man holding a duffle a few feet off the ground? The guy was not large... he was toned and well muscled for his size. Ask chuck norris about it. Chuck was a great fighter and pretty ripped for his size and thats all he could talk about after getting his ribs broken was how fast Bruce was. I read an interview recently about how chuck said he kept getting inside his guard. And again.... The Gracies are not big men but they make other big muscled men hurt. There are different kinds of strength, and i have found weight training to only take you so far. The idea is to know when youve reached the end of that road and not drive off the cliff.

[John_Clements]

There are two articles here on the site dealing with this topic:

"Using the 'F' Word – The Role of Fitness in Historical Fencing"
and
“Fence with all your strength…”

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Bill,

I agree that holistic physical fitness--strength included--is very important to development as a fighter. When I first decided to really, truly take this seriously the first thing I did was hit the gym.

But...

If we are to fight as they fought (and we believe that they fought better than we do--which I believe), then we need to learn from their stuff. We can improve on it where physical training is concerned, sure--as we have done with most other physical activity in the last century--but only once we understand what's there to improve on.

The previous mention of gymnastics is important--according to the overall bent of 2004's Conference on Rennaissance athletics and athleticism in Toronto (where I had the privelege of represending the ARMA) lined gymnastics and gymnastic-style activities as a primary method of physical training for the warrior class. Think less Arnold and more Cirque du Solei, complete with handstands, wooden horses (an activity in modern gymnastics that is directly derived from the warrior class of the Rennaisance and earlier), and other feats of gravity-defiance.

Now do it in armor, such as the knight that avocated climing towers in a full hauberk by posting out between them. I assure you he was a very, very strong man.

I don't want to discount weights--I use 'em, and I've had my clock absolutely cleaned by a guy who probably lifts more than anyone around here (anyone remember Ray Brunk spinning my helmet around my head in New York in 2003?). But John Clements--a much, much smaller man--hits more, almost as hard, and twice as fast.

Shifting a little...

Running and cardio is very important to this art. Wind-sprints, however, are a better analogy for the kind of endurance necessary for a serious RMA fighter. It's a lot of gentle movement followed by long and short bursts of tremendous expenditure of energy. And out on the ancient battlefield, or in a fight for your life, or in a modern prize-playing or 3-day event you'll need that long endurance.

But being buff doesn't hurt, either. And it sure as heck makes our art look more legit if we're in good shape, not squishy like, well, um...you know.

Jake

[Bill Tsafa]

There are two articles here on the site dealing with this topic:

"Using the 'F' Word – The Role of Fitness in Historical Fencing"
and
“Fence with all your strength…”

Thanks John. I read both of them. I think they make the point far better then I seem to be able too. In summery they say "fence with both skill and strength" .

The stone lifting and throwing pictures also help support my view.

Jerome, with regard to bulking up and slowing down. I am only 15 lbs heavier then when I was not working out. I posted the details somewhere in the begining. That is 15% increase in weight. My squat has gone up 140 lbs. That is a 62 % increase in power. If you increase the weight of a car 15 % and the power of its drivetrain 62% you will have a much faster car as a simple matter of physics. The problem occures when the weight increase is a higher percentage then the power increase.

Jake, I have a full suit of mail armor that weights 40 lbs with the headpeice. I do in fact practice in it sometimes.

Trust me. The weight training makes a far bigger diffrence when you put 40 lbs of armor on.

As a sidenote, if you get a mail suit like this you will have to trim the cuffs so that they are tighter around the wrist to prevent the sleves from hitting your face when you swing. It took me 3 hrs to trim them. I think 40 lbs may be good for training purposes but in a real battle I think I would trim 10 lbs off. Perhaps create a slit down both side of the leg to shed the 10 lbs of armor.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

OK Bill- Can't take it anymore we all-ready talked about these increases in power you keep referring too, congrats on your training but you are not a car and so just lifting more weight, (which is dead weight) does not translate into more pwer per se...I wish you would stop saying that- has any of our points made any impact on what you think about weight training- ?

As I said i have lifted all my life, at one time doing the power meets and benching / much more than you decribe- but when I met some of the ARMA folks I was amazed at the agility-speed and power- these aspects combine along with skill to form power- this discussion is getting stale with me man- seriously looks like you are working hard, but please stop with the increase in power percentages stuff it has noooo bearing whatsoever- Aaron

[Jake_Norwood]

Thanks, Aaron. My point exactly.

Bill,

Weights are good. Strength is good. Where strength increases power and speed is very good. Where strength becomes a substitute for speed and power, however is bad.

The purpose of a weapon, after all, is largely to overcome possible disadvantages in physique through technology and training.

Build strength, build speed, build endurance (see Codex Wallerstein's introduction to Ringen...plate 38, I think, or thereabouts).

Jake

[david welch]

I was asking some of my combatatives guys about fight training. I am about to start their "program" and will let you know how it goes.

Here it is:

After a body weight warm up ( I think their warm up would be most peoples whole exercise routine.)

One: Over head squats. Take a very light weight (less than 20 lbs to start) on a bar. clean and jerk it over your head, and while holding it there do a slow, full squat, feet flat on the ground, and then explode up, trying to jump off the floor. Place bar back on floor and repeat.

This is a full body workout, and also works a lot of hip and shoulder flexability. Apparently there are a few olympic lift coaches that are using this as a sign of whether you are able to start working with "heavy" weights... and when you can do 17 of these non-stop with your body weight, you are ready to start. <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Two: Hill sprints. Find a hill 100-200 yards long. Walk to the bottom. Sprint to the top. Repeat for 20-30 minutes. This is high output interval cardio training, and the advantage of doing it up hill is that not only do you work harder but it is harder to injure yourself sprinting up hill that in would be if you were sprinting on a flat.

That's all. 3 times a week, better if you will max and do 1 day, rest two days.

[Jeff Hansen]

I have been following this thread with interest and although I can see both sides, I have to come down on Jake's side of the fence. With the reservation that I don't think traditional weight training for size and strength will harm your martial efforts as long as you continue to train martially in parallel to your weight training. However, if the training is specifically in furtherance of your fighting skills, imho, then the exersizes should be geared toward building those fast twitch muscle fibers. In pure grappling this becomes less of an issue. Once you've got your hands on the guy, strength is strength. But, your footwork and movement entering the "clinch" require maximum speed to get to a position of advantage. Ott says speed is king, or something to that effect. Any kind of striking, be it with a sword or a fist also requires a good dose of speed for max effectiveness.

To show where I'm coming from, I've been lifting weights off and on for 20+ years, and for most of that time I have been a practicioner of the slow and controlled method of building muscle. Good for building muscle while avoiding injury. When I do bench press I have a stall point right at the point where my elbows are at about 90 degrees. Now, if I do get stuck there are two ways to get past that point without resorting to a second person. When I first started lifting as a kid I used to drop the weight back down, bounce it off my chest and use inertia to get past the sticking point. After years of training slow, that no longer works for me. Now I have to keep breathing and just push through. I've tried the bounce, and I just can't do it any more. So, I think that how you train definitely affects how you are able to apply your strength.

As for what training to do for our art. I think that as long as explosive movements are incorporated the argument between iron and body weight is moot as long as you're very carefull to avoid injury. That said, if I could start over again in my teens, and swordsmanship was my only goal. I would probably stay more to the body weight side of things because it is easier to avoid injury. Weight training with exposive movements such as powerlifting runs a very high risk of injury if your technique isn't dead on. Something that becomes more and more difficult to maintain as you exhaust the muscles during a workout. Something along the lines of the workout in David Welch's post just before this one sounds excellent.

Anyway, that's my $.03

[Jaron Bernstein]

Good discussion. I would say that even with body weight calisthenics, you still need to be mindful of how you do them to develop slow or fast twitch muscle. Example, slow controlled pushups vs. the "clapping" kind. Long slow jogging vs. short sprints. In theory if you do weight lifting in such a way that works your fast twitch reactions (but also endangers your joints!) you can get the best of both worlds. One thing I will say for weights (years ago I was a lifter although now I am a 90% swimming, leg raise and pull ups dude) is that it builds muscle mass in ways that body weight doesn't (for me at least).

[Risto Rautiainen]

Well you can hurt your self with your own body weight too... I once sprained my shoulder while trying to do a one hand pushup. No training for me for two weeks. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

One thing to remember in weight training for fighters is that you never train to exhaustion. After training you should feel like you can tear walls apart. This works for avoiding injuries as well.

For bodyweight work, I have heard that this book is a good read: Pavel Tsasouline: The Naked Warrior: Master the Secrets of the Super-Strong--Using Bodyweight. Nevermind the hype.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Risto

Since you posted Pavel's book name, i figure i would post a link to this article on Generating power in strike's.

Generating Power in Martial Arts

Very interesting article.

Jeff

[Bill Welch]

A really interesting web page, that covers alot of the old time wrestlers and strong men, and about a million old books on physical fittness.

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/

They, being old time wrestlers, might know something about getting in shape to fight. Several of the books specifically talk about developing muscle that is powerful lean and explosive.

The site is kind of neat, anyway.