Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

European historical unarmed fighting techniques & methods

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:10 pm

Bill- the holy grail- Thank u, very cool webpage! -
"Because I Like It"

david welch
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby david welch » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:49 pm

Yeah, the Farmer Burns Mail Order Wrestling Course from 1912 kicks butt. Seriously. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Bill Welch
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Bill Welch » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:36 pm

There is so many different books it hard to know where to start.
The book on indian clubs is great!! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
(not to mention the other hundred books.) <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />
Thanks, Bill
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Bill Tsafa
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Bill Tsafa » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:26 am

However, if the training is specifically in furtherance of your fighting skills, imho, then the exersizes should be geared toward building those fast twitch muscle fibers.


Hi Jeff. The workouts I posted based on 4 sets of 5 repetitions. This is what my coach had me doing when I was compeatoing in shotput, discus, and javelin. It is a common workout for these events. Incedently these are ancient weapons of war that predate the sword. Anyway, throwing these implements, is 70 % technique. You can not muscle your throw. Speed is second to techique. In the case of shot put and discus, you have 7 feet to reach maximum acceleration. The 4 sets of 5 repetitions are designed to give you to instantanious top speed. In the javelin you do a 40 foot sprint and then release. Speed development is at the very heart of the workout I posted. I do not think it is ideal for marching accross vast lands on foot with equiptment and supplies and then running accross a large field and charging your enemy and fighting them all day. I think it is ideal for a duel situation with the longsword that should only last a few minutes.

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Jeff Hansen
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Jeff Hansen » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:26 am

Bill,
I threw shot and discus in high school so I'm familiar with the techniques. And 4 sets of 5 is fine with me. The point I was making is that your five reps should be done with a hard and fast movement, as opposed to the school of thought which calls for slow controlled movement (i.e.- counting to five during each rep) which will build muscle, but not the sort of muscle we would prefer for martial arts. If your goal is to be the best swordsman in the world with 20 inch arms, you're going to have to pump iron. However, while strength helps, I don't think you need the 20 inch arms to be the best swordsman. This being the case, if you are only concerned with mastery of the art then body weight exercises are IMO a better choice for building the necessary strength with the least chance (not no chance) of injury. Personally, I lift weights three days a week because I want the arms too. But that's me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Jeff Hansen
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"A coward believes he will ever live
if he keep him safe from strife:
but old age leaves him not long in peace
though spears may spare his life." - from The Havamal

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Brian Hunt
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Brian Hunt » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:17 pm

Hi Jeff,

that explains why you are such a strong brute to wrestle with. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt
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Bill Tsafa
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Bill Tsafa » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:45 pm

The point I was making is that your five reps should be done with a hard and fast movement, as opposed to the school of thought which calls for slow controlled movement (i.e.- counting to five during each rep) which will build muscle, but not the sort of muscle we would prefer for martial arts.


I never seen anybody doing that 5 second count. Certainly not shot putters. We all lifted explosivly training for track and field. But even in the gym, I don't see anybody doing 5 second reps except for some oddballs, and tust me they don't have anything to show for it. Those are the guys that really don't know what they are doing and are following the guidlines of some book they found in the library.

Most of the bodybuilders I have seen work with 4 or 5 sets of 7 to 10 reps. They do it a pretty normal pace. Very honestly, from all the people I have observed training over the years in different sports, the size and shape of any particular muscle is geneticly predetermined. In the absence of steroids, I think you will reach the same size regardless of number of sets and reps. I am speeking within normal training parameters here. If you train with 4x5 or 5x8, I think you will look the same. You will be more explosive with the 4x5 workout , and even more explosive with 8x2 which is usualy reserved for just before competition for peek explosiveness. Sizewise I think it makes less of a difference. My chest grew to its current size when I was between 15 and 17 years old from only doing push ups. 4 sets of 40 reps. I have a 300% stenth increase in chest since then but pretty much the same size. Its genetic, my father has a big chest. Reletive to my chest, I have small bicepts, again same as my father. Regardless of if I am doing dumbell curls with 45 lbs for 4x10 or using 55 lbs for 4x5 they do not grow any bigger. I have been trying different combinations with that for last 15 years so I am positive. The lower reps do make them stronger though. I prefer median approch of 4x8 for arms with 50 lb'ers.

one side note: coaches often make beginers do pauses with squats at the bottom so they can learn to go parrallel. The tendency for them is to go 3/4 down. I do not think this is that you were talking about.

One more thought. Most people who know football will say that football is all about skill, cooridination and planning. You ask any lineman and he will tell you on the line they try to outballace their opponent rather then muscle them if they can. Winning is all about coordination and planning, yet strength training is a key component to the training on any football team. In that billion dollor sport with the latest statistics on sprots science, I do not think they would have athlets spend so much time in the weight room if it was not a vital factor.

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TimSheetz
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby TimSheetz » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:26 am

HI all,

Doing slow counts on some exercises is a VERY good thing to do. I am speaking of body weight as resistance and not lifting weights specifically. The tendency when exploding or moving fast is to 'cheat'.

Case in point, before slow reps doign set of 40 pushups separated by runs between a half to quarter mile was fairly taxing. So in the off days between this I instituted slow pushups. We only did 20. Once. 10 with feet elevated on a couch seat, down with a slow 4 count, up with a slow 4 count. Then non elevated 5 close hand, and 5 wide arm. Not too long after instituing this, doing sets of 50 with our program was not just possible, but easy.

Slow reps have a 'place', but you can't just live in that 'place'. I think the same is true of most exercises.

Tim Sheetz
Tim Sheetz
ARMA SFS

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Dennis Zlat
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Dennis Zlat » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:46 am

In my opinion, work out in a gym does not help you to fight better.
When you work out and gain weight, you harm you coordination system and became slower. You can be a powerful man with huge muscles but it does not help you to get you opponent in the fight. What you rely need is endurance and the best things for it is running or swimming, strength but not the kind that you work out in a gym, you need the strength that will work with your coordination system, all exercises with your own weight which your combine with aerobic work. Basketball and football players are the good example.
All these are my own experience, my weight is 120 kg. and I have 45 sm. arms but my coach for sword combat, who is less powerful than me and lighter, bit me all the time.
Guys do not waist your time.

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Risto Rautiainen
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Risto Rautiainen » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:17 pm

No, no, no! You can work out in the gym and _not_ gain significant amount of weight, but gain strength. Why on earth would athletes such as long jumpers workout in the gym if it made them bulky and slow? You just need to do the right kind of exercises, with the right weight and the right amount. And remember to stretch. If we look at the worlds top combatitive sports athletes, they _all_ train in the gym. I know swordfighting is not the same as they are and strength doesn't matter that much, but if you ever end up wrestling, strength is gonna help. Better technique helps more, but why not get all the help you can?

david welch
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby david welch » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:23 pm

If strength didn't matter, there wouldn't be weight classes in wrestling.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

Bill Tsafa
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Bill Tsafa » Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:30 pm

If strength didn't matter, there wouldn't be weight classes in wrestling.


or boxing... and that is all speed, endurance and timing... but strength is a factor.

This might be similar to questioning if a person with longer arms has an advantage over a man with shorter arms. Sure a man with shorter arms may be skillfull enough to overcome his disadvantage, but if they are equaly skilled the long armed man has an advantage.

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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Ray_McCullough » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:32 pm

on boxing , it only takes so many pounds of pressure to crack a skull. Its not a whole lot Ithink its around 12 pounds. I need to look that up. a properly placed punch doesnt require as much strenght as you think

on exercise programs try kettle bell exercises you ll build strenght and endurance. I weigh 180 at 6feet and im stronger , quicker, and have more endurance then i did 4 months ago at 197. i weghed more and was lifting weights heavy. but im better off lighter and quicker (and stronger now) doing core building exercise. Ill look up the kettle bell webbsite and post it on the next post.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7

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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Ray_McCullough » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:37 pm

www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/kettlebell-exercises.html

here are the exercises i do i dont have kettlebells becouse they are exspencive. you can use dumbells. when i work up to the 50 pound kettlebell i ll break down and buy some.
enjoy i do.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7

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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Working Out in the Gym in order to fight bette

Postby Ray_McCullough » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:40 pm

three sets 15-20 reps sorry i broke this into so many post
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7


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