Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

[Dennis Zlat]

Guys, I did not say that strength is not important. I only insist on two things. First, I am almost thirty years old now, and I can find some time for exercise only two or three time per week. Certainly, I devote it on real combat.
Second, you are right professional sportsmen usually work out in a gym, but this kind of training is only a small part that is integrated in their professional training, that why they do not became slower. They play basketball several hours each day and spend one hour in a gym. One of you can devote several hours each day to sword training, I guess not. The solution is to include exercises with you own weight into your sword training. I exercise with heavy stick 10-15 min and if I had additional time I would include swimming.
Nobody argue that strength is not important the question is only about priority.

[Bill Welch]

"When you work out and gain weight, you harm you coordination system and became slower. You can be a powerful man with huge muscles but it does not help you to get you opponent in the fight. "

Thats simply not true, haver you never seen olympic wrestlers, professional wrestlers(they may be big and the fighting fake, but I would be they could tie most people up into little knots and they are fast as lightning).

its important to also train for quick movement, you should be able to have both. You would not want muscles like a body builder, but most people dont have that potential anyway.

[Risto Rautiainen]

Okay, if I sum this thread up:

A duelling swordsman needs:

1. Technique, speed and coordination. Speed requires a certain type of strength.
2. Strength for manipulation of his opponent
3. Endurance to be able to train efficiently and safely numbers 1 and 2.

The best thing would be if you could train swordmanship everyday, but as I can't, everything that supplements me to become a better swordsman is a plus.

[Bill Tsafa]

That seems like a fair summery to me <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Dennis Zlat]

Bill Welch I already wrote in my previous message, do not give professional sportsmen as an example. For them the training in a gym is only one part of their training program, If you can devote several hours each day on Martial Art training, certainly you will benefit from work out in gym.
Risto Rautiainen, You are right, but in Second point manipulation of you opponent, strength is important but right technique and coordination is more important.
The simplest example John Clements, when I saw him I was amazed how fast he is, and I am not telling now about his great technique; however I guess that I am stronger than he. Several years ago, I did dead-lifts with almost 200 kg. in the gym. Does it helps me to define him I am afraid no.
By the way, my position is based only on my own experience and I do not force it to anybody.
With Respect.

[david welch]

do not give professional sportsmen as an example. For them the training in a gym is only one part of their training program, If you can devote several hours each day on Martial Art training, certainly you will benefit from work out in gym.

I guess I am completely missing your point.

I didn't see anyone saying to only work out in the gym instead of doing sword training.

As far as the working several hours a day like a professional athlete:

Throw some weight on a bar. Do 10 over head squats to warm up.

Add weigh. Do 5
Add weigh. Do 4
Add weigh. Do 3
Add weigh. Do 2
Add weigh. Do 1

Full body workout plus some serious cardio :10 minutes

Grab your waster and go outside to your pell.

Set an egg timer for two minutes.

Attack you pell as fast as you can with all the combinations you can come up with.

When the timer goes off, set it for two minutes and walk to catch your breath.

Repeat for 20 min.

Full body workout, plus cardio, plus some of the best sword practice you can do:

About 30 minutes, three time a week.

How can you possibly not have time to do that?

[Risto Rautiainen]

Dennis Zlat wrote:

"Risto Rautiainen, You are right, but in Second point manipulation of you opponent, strength is important but right technique and coordination is more important."

Yep, that's why I left strenght to be under number two, not number one. We totally agree on this.

In my case gym is imperative as I'm quite thin. I can practise swordmanship 2x 2 hours a week, so I have more than enough spare time for gym.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

Hi, i'm new here. I live in england, and got into Historical Swordplay via Re-enactment.

Anyway, i hadn't done a lot in the way of sword for a few months until last sunday, when to my suprise working out meant that i lasted a 2ish hour session and wasn't tired. So working out does affect how well you fight, or at least how long you can fight...

Martin.

[Bill Tsafa]

I think that the most definative example would be all those professional baseball players getting in trouble for steroid use. Despite the fact that baseball is 99.9 % skill rather then strength, those guys not only worked out but also resorted to illigal Anabolic steroids to give them even additional strength advantages.

I don't follow baseball much but from what I heard these guys were considered among the better players. I also remember some controversy from a few years back regarding Mark Mcguire hitting record homeruns and also taking some strength enhancing drugs while hitting the weights that had not been banned at the time.

All this is indicative. I garantee that they were not doing body weight excersises or aerobics but rather a strength program like I recomend.
http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/workout.htm

I guess I am completely missing your point.
I didn't see anyone saying to only work out in the gym instead of doing sword training.

Your right David. I think I should have named the thread differently, I think the tittle may be confusing people. Some people still think I am telling them to stop sword practice. This is not true. The steroid baseball players still go to batting practice.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

They were also some of the older players just trying to "keep up" with the pace of the game, and trying to gain an advantage. I think overall Bill no one has said that you are saying to stop the sword practice, but I have to say that if I was to spend one hour a day doing A workout, whatever that may entail, the best use of my time as a martial artist, is going to be body weight exercises, and exercise with the sword- mixing a little weight lifting is not bad, but in the ways that we describe, your workout I am afraid is good for lifting heavier weights- thats it.

[Gene Tausk]

Bill, respectfully, I think you have just about done this topic to death. If you feel that lifting weights is the only way to get the strength necessary to become proficient at swordfighting/armed combat, then it's great that you have this opinion and I certainly hope it works well for you.

However, when people in ARMA whom I respect very much such as Jake N and Aaron P advocate the use of bodyweight exercises, and I can certainly vouch for the fact that these two individuals are fast and hit hard, I believe you have to rethink your whole idea that "weights are the only way to go." I use an exercise program which involves swordwork (imagine that, actually using a sword to develop sword skills) combined with push ups, crunches, pull ups, dips and squats and it certainly has worked well for me. Aaron P was kind enough to share his exercise program with me and I have made modifications to my own because I think he is on the right track. Also, Tim S shared a similar exercise program with me at our international gathering a few years ago, but I promptly forgot it (sorry man, baby was on the way and all that <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). (offsite note, Tim has been promising for hmmmm, quite some time now to get his exercise program to me and others. Just a reminder.... <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). Tim is also a person I respect for his fighting abilities, so it certainly seems to work for him. Now, if Jake, Aaron and Tim seem to do well with these bodyweight exercises, I think I am in good company.

Although we have no way of actually knowing, I am reasonably confident in making the statement that our European warrior ancestors during the Middle Ages did not go to a gym to work out. They had the "advantage," of course, of living in a preindustrial civilization where manual labor was done by pretty much everyone so there was no question that these individuals were in excellent physical shape. However, I believe if you could transplant Talhoffer, Lichtenauer or Meyer to the present day, they would be able to demonstrate for us bodyweight excercises that would probably put most of us to shame. And, I doubt very much they would be willing to forgo these exercises for a lifting program.

As I said, if weights work for you, great. I'm happy for you. However, I, like most if not all people within ARMA, have a limited time we can devote to our workouts and I think I speak for the vast majority of ARMA members when I say that we work out so that we can develop proficiency as swordspeople (swordpersons?). This means we have to make the most of our time when working out to achieve our goals. For me, and I suppose I can state for Aaron as well, combining working out with a sword along with body weight exercises does the job. And, it allows me to work my 60 hour a week job and have a family life at the same time (wow, sounds like an infomercial).

If further posts are simply going to point out how much weight you can lift, then this really is off-topic.


------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[TimSheetz]

HI Gene,

"Tim S shared a similar exercise program with me at our international gathering a few years ago, but I promptly forgot it (sorry man, baby was on the way and all that ). "

It was also at 0600 on the last day after late nights of sword-talkin'. Most folks I saw that early just seemed not at their optimum energy level... puzzling to me. Can you imagine how the folks who train with me at 0530 twice a week feel?

"(offsite note, Tim has been promising for hmmmm, quite some time now to get his exercise program to me and others. Just a reminder.... )."

Riiight. Yeeeepp. Uuuuhhh. Weeelllll. Hhhmmmm. Yeah. I better get on that. sorry bout that.

Peace,

Tim

[Logan Weed]

Well a mere 2-3 instances a week of high resistance/low repetition weight training for about 20 minutes is pretty close to optimal, or so I've heard. It's a nice supplement but actual work with the weapon coupled with acrobatics and other body weight excercizes most form the foundation of physical fitness. If your goal is to move with agility, grace and power then there's no better means of training than to simply practice that which you hope to attain.

[david welch]

To try and drag this on topic...

Gene said:

Although we have no way of actually knowing, I am reasonably confident in making the statement that our European warrior ancestors during the Middle Ages did not go to a gym to work out. They had the "advantage," of course, of living in a preindustrial civilization where manual labor was done by pretty much everyone so there was no question that these individuals were in excellent physical shape. However, I believe if you could transplant Talhoffer, Lichtenauer or Meyer to the present day, they would be able to demonstrate for us bodyweight excercises that would probably put most of us to shame. And, I doubt very much they would be willing to forgo these exercises for a lifting program

I strongly disagree with the idea that the fighters of old didn't "work out", or at least didn't use weight training.

We know from readings and from historical artworks that they did in fact "work out".





In the top picture next to the guy "lifting weights" with the rock, you have someone with what looks like a weighted club, doing something that looks similar to an "indian club" workout. Oddly enough, in the middle east working out with a heavy club was a mainstay piece of exercise equipment.

I submit that the whole idea of lifting rocks is identical to us lifting weights, and that if anything the only argument is that their weights were not very "technically advanced", and there is a good arguement against that. There is a whole weight training culture right now that uses what it calls "dinosaur training" where for weights they use logs, rocks, and other natural objects to work out with. The difficult nature of lifting such cumbersom objects has made it part of the lifting regiment for people training for strong man competitions.

In the bottom picture, the two figures in the background show what looks like two people working out together with a pole and a ring, however, I have also seen pictures of a "gym" that showed each of these on their own so they may be working out seperatly and it just looks like they are a team.

The documents where there is a mention of lifting and throwing stones are fairly numerous, and I won't bother to find examples unless you insist. I would hardly call those "body weight exercises".

[TimSheetz]

Hi Dave,

I don't think that Gene wasn't trying to say that they didn't work out or even didn't lift some weight... they just didn't due 5 sets of three reps at a heavy weight. ( Sorry if I am talking out of school, Gene)

Even the clubs you mention are all high rep, low weight and are systems that develop and encourage flexibility and full ranges of motion.

The hand stand on the table in the art you attached shows the point that they used body weight as a resistor. Wrestling is one of the absolute BEST ways to develop strength in my opinion and I wish I had the opportunity to do more of it.

The othe exercises show combatives, or combative related activity. So a majority of the exercises are NOT lifting heavy weights.

It is not a question of wherther they exercised, but of what kind of excercise.

Peace,

Tim