Combatives

[Jaron Bernstein]

You wrote: "My favorite take down was always the hair takedown."

Never did it myself, but I once saw a barfight where long hair and a (ripped out) earing just weren't real helpful to their owner.

You wrote: "Afterwards just plant your knee in the back of the neck or the nerve center in the upper back. I used this several times with good effect."

I don't doubt its effectiveness, but it also isn't something I can use either. I kind of like my job and house, which lawyers have a way of taking when you lose the lawsuit.

You wrote: " If you use the pressure points they will give you their arm for cuffing most of the time. I only had one person not respond to pressure points and he was on pcp. I used the caroited restraint with him to get him under control."

Drug cases and mentals are different. The don't feel pain, so you either need lots of people to sit on the poor SOB or really good technique.


You wrote: "I used the head takedown on one occasion. It worked very well but it is risky since you can break a neck. The move is executed by driving the head back with a palm strike then grabbing it and turning it like a steering wheel. Where the head goes, the body must follow. The full move is to place a knee on one shoulder and keep turing the head until the neck breaks. I didn't follow through after the guy went to the ground, for obvious reasons. Just a couple of street tested options that have done well for me in my limited experance."

I have done this technique very slowly in practice. I wouldn't want to do it in any case short of a lethal force situation for the risks you list.

Jaron
ARMA-Columbus

[Guest]

I know what you are talking about. I used the hair takedown when I was working as a correctional officer. In my area it was a legit take down. All the departments used it. We were taught it and pressure points in the academy, but I agree if your dept does not approve it don't do it.

As for the head take down I was working as a medic at the time. I used it on a guy about 6' 7" or so whacked out on heroin and speed. It was a life threatning situation. I agree that it should be ued only in extreme circumstances.

As for the caroited restraint, it was as a medic. 2 deputies, my partner and I were getting beaten up by the guy. At one point my partner hit him in the ribs and I heard them crack. He didn't flinch. I knew it was a matter of time before someone got hurt bad, so I decided to put him out.

I agree 100% that excessive force is wrong on moral grounds, not to mention you can lose your house. Please understand when I use force it is appropiate. I am not the kind of guy to go fight, in fact I will walk away if possable. Unfortunatly I have had to use force a few times in jobs that I have had.

[Jamie Fellrath]

I know what you are talking about. I used the hair takedown when I was working as a correctional officer. In my area it was a legit take down. All the departments used it. We were taught it and pressure points in the academy, but I agree if your dept does not approve it don't do it.

Perhaps it's a bit different a situation, but when I was in lifesaving, one of the carries we learned was the hair carry. If you got a big enough clump of hair in your hand, you weren't going to hurt the person's follicles and you could pretty much maneuver them any way you wanted.

Now I realize that if you're using this as a grip for controlling an attacker, you're going to apply more force than we did in lifesaving, but my point is that hair is pretty strong and you're not going to hurt anyone too bad if you get enough of it in your hand. And if you're applying this at all, the person's probably going to have quite a mop on them or you wouldn't even think of trying it.

[Guest]

Jamie,

Yea it is the same principal. If done properly you don't need a lot of force, basicly you just jerk them off balance and onto the floor. Its hard to describe, but works well. Also you would be surprised how short the hair can be for it to work, but the longer the better. If someone is bald etc. I have been told you can grab an ear as well, but I have never tried that or seen it done. I think it would be difficult to get a hold on in a serious scuffle. I find in a real fight I have trouble applying complex moves, so I keep it simple and stupid like me <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> . I'm not saying other people can't do more complex moves in a real fight, just that I don't have the skill level to.

[Jared L. Cass]

Speaking of hair take-downs....

For some of you whom I met in NY this past spring, you'll recognize this short but oh-so-sweet story. For you all that haven't heard it...get ready to laugh and oooo and ahhh <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

In my regular MA training last winter, I was sparring with a friend. I was getting some good blows in when he took me to the ground. I immedidietly tried to get into the guard position. I wasn't quick enoufgh, so he got a real nice side mount. After a number of attempts to find a lock or gain full mount, my friend had a stroke of genieus. As I was now expecting him to try for full mount again, I wasn't prepaired for what came next. Suddendly he was out of side mount and I cought an elbow to the head. Next thing I know, I'm being choked out with my own hair!

Those of you who haven't met me, I've got real long hair(almost to my butt), which I usually wear in a long braid. It was wrapped around my neck and I had to tap out almost imMediatly. The whole above exchange (from standing to groung to submission) lasted maybe 30 seconds. It rocked!

Yep, it sort of sucked having my hair used against me in that way (I'm used to it being pulled and grabbed and I've become pretty good at getting out of hair pulls...but this was something else!), but it was one of the coolist things I've ever experienced. Wish I would have thought of that! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sort of related to this and getting this thread back on HEMA related issues, is the manner in which most of the manuals avaliable to us demonstrate the "gross moter" movements. Such as simple hair pulls/grabs, using the large easy to grab things-like the head, the elbow, and behind the knee, to control and throw an opponent. I find these movements 100% easier to use in almost full-on sparring than any "small precision" movements (like wrist locks, nerve centers, ect).

Now, if they'd only let you officers throw thugs around more...with out having to worry about legal issues <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Shane Smith]

Good story and a great point Jared.

As your tale of woe conveys,the basics work every time. Gross movements are much more easily done under the stress of adversarial combat and even intense training than delicate techniques.How do I know? I have a lump or two to prove it! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi John,


You wrote: "I know what you are talking about. I used the hair takedown when I was working
as a correctional officer. In my area it was a legit take down. All the
departments used it."

CO's have a worse situation IMO. We get several armed cops per suspect. CO's are unarmed and have several hundred guests at the graybar hotel with little to do per day besides lift and work on their social skills.


You wrote: " We were taught it and pressure points in the academy, but I
agree if your dept does not approve it don't do it."

I actually don't like the pressure points and the fine motor skill stuff for the simple reason that it rarely works in application, as mentioned below. Everything I have been able to make work in real time is a few simple gross motor skills that are practiced repeatedly. Sure, I know a lot of throws, as in I can do them in static practice and they look pretty. In free sparring I have only a few "bread and butter" ones that actually work. Getting back the WMA thing, I think it is interesting that while there are literally thousands of things you can do with your langenshwert, there are only 5 meisterhau and 2 very simple forms of footwork. Especially considering that folks who wrote those manuals had far more actual experience at this than we are ever likely to get, there must be a lesson in that.

You wrote: "As for the headtake down I was working as a medic at the time. I used it on a guy about 6' 7"
or so whacked out on heroin and speed. It was a life threatning situation. I
agree that it should be ued only in extreme circumstances."

Just so you can articulate the circumstance, with lots of witnesses, lots of good evidence, a good attorney, maybe then a good chewbacca defense can be mounted. Absent that...it can be a bad day. I have done that next twisting head takedown in training (VERY slowly) with training partners, it worked great and IMO it could be one of those "workable" techniques if you train it a lot. I am just leery of having something like that become my muscle memory, especially when head/neck stuff is in the lethal force part of the force continuum. Mabye for Maj. Sheetz and military applications, but not for my side of the house.


You wrote: "the caroited restraint, it was as a medic. 2 deputies, my partner and I were
getting beaten up by the guy. At one point my partner hit him in the ribs and I
heard them crack. He didn't flinch. I knew it was a matter of time before
someone got hurt bad, so I decided to put him out.

I agree 100% that
excessive force is wrong on moral grounds, not to mention you can lose your
house. Please understand when I use force it is appropi!
ate."

I am not being critical at all. It sounds as if the circumstances you list more than justified the level of force used. I am just a big believer in "you do as you train". So, whatever you practice the most is what you are likely to do when in actual situations there is no time think through the vast menu of stuff you have done. You just instinctively go with whatever you trained into your muscle memory. Therefore:
1. Choose what you want to train into you muscle memory with consideration for what are likely to face. Maj. Sheetz for instance could train a different muscle memory (lethal force being fine for military use) than civilian law enforcement.

2. On the "to spar or not to spar" theme, train your stuff under (with safety modifications) real time conditions as much as possible to ensure that you can make it work.

Anyway, that and 1$ can get you some coffee (except at Starbucks where the coffee is better and costlier)

[Guest]

Jaron,

Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought you were being critical. I didn't feel you were at all. I put the disclaimer in for all the folks that have never been in a fight with someone on drugs and may feel I was using excessive force with the head takedown and caroited restraint.

I agree 100% that in practice complex moves are possable, but, are very hard if not impossable to do in a real fight. There is data proving that you lose fine motor skills when the adrenlin hits your system. I was looking at a book the other day on medievel fighting that showed a couple of weapons and unarmed moves. It showed a neck breaking move that is very similar to one I learned in the army. (I can't remember the name of the book) It seems from that book that the simple moves worked best for them as well. It's amazing to me that we keep trying to improve all these things by doing research, but it was learned hundreds of years before.

As for the pressure points I have used them successfully on people after they are on the ground. An example is someone you have taken to the ground and are on top of, but refuse to give you their arm. I have used a pressure point behind the ear until they give me the arm so I could cuff them. I prefer to do that instead of leaning out and upsetting my balance if I can. In the middle of a knock down drag out fight they are useless.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi John,

You wrote: "Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought you were being critical. I didn't feel you were at all. I put the disclaimer in for all the folks that have never been in a fight with someone on drugs and may feel I was using excessive force with the head takedown and caroited restraint."

Very true. For whatever reason, both druggies and mentals just seem immune to the stuff that normal people react to.


John wrote: "I agree 100% that in practice complex moves are possable, but, are very hard if not impossable to do in a real fight."

I think they can be done, but (a very large caveat here) only if you train them and train them into instinct. For instance, some of the more complex Aikido moves can work for an upper level practicioner who has done them for 20+ years or so. But only AFTER that much training to make a fine motor skill work. Most people don't have that kind of time to train or choose to train things that develop faster for the simple reason that you may need them next week, not 10 years away. That is one thing I really like about the ARMA stuff. Cuts based on gross movements, a few meisterhau (with many so many applications from the one movement) and simple footwork. Now if I could just carry a longsword at work...

John wrote: " There is data proving that you lose fine motor skills when the adrenlin hits your system. I was looking at a book the other day on medievel fighting that showed a couple of weapons and unarmed moves. It showed a neck breaking move that is very similar to one I learned in the army. (I can't remember the name of the book) It seems from that book that the simple moves worked best for them as well. It's amazing to me that we keep trying to improve all these things by doing research, but it was learned hundreds of years before."

One of my teachers once made a joke upon us "discovering" a "new" technique, that we have just invented something the Chinese have know for thousands of years. More seriously, I get the sense that there are only so many ways to manipulate the human body and cultures the world over have quite understandably "discovered" the same stuff independent of each other. Then skills become lost (as is the case with the redevelopment of WMA) and must be reconstructed with as much data as we can extract from the old manuals. I think that we maybe get some insight into the gaps in WMA by good training, study of the manuals and looking at how other arts have addressed similar situations.

John wrote: "As for the pressure points I have used them successfully on people after they are on the ground. An example is someone you have taken to the ground and are on top of, but refuse to give you their arm. I have used a pressure point behind the ear until they give me the arm so I could cuff them."

Makes sense. Another good way is just wedge your knee in between their upper arm and shoulder blade and let your body weight do the work.

John wrote: "I prefer that instead of leaning out and upsetting my balance if I can. In the middle of a knock down drag out fight they are useless."

Which takes us back to that whole gross movement thing. That said, some fine controls (eyes, throat, finger twists) IMO could work in a heavy fight. I have never used the eyes or throat ones for obvious reasons, but finger controls work wonders even on very large and angry people.

[Jay Vail]

In free sparring I have only a few "bread and butter" ones that actually work.

What do you consider your bread and butter? In in the real world, which ones do you consider the best, most useful, and most flexible?

[Guest]

What, they don't let you carry a longsword? What kind of dept do you work for. How about a flail, that seems it wouuld be handy in a close fight. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jay,

You wrote: "What do you consider your bread and butter? In in the real world, which ones do you consider the best, most useful, and most flexible?"

I would first say that what works for me may not work for the next person. It all depends on that holistic mix of your build, speed, coordination, timing, strength, skill level and of course what and how intensely your train. And WHICH techniques you choose to train into your muscle memory. I am one of those people that mother nature intended to be pale, fat and uncoordinated. I have to work hard to overcome that.

My personal favorite rear takedown has many names in many arts. I don't have the books here so I can't give you a HEMA reference, but it is illustrated there (and other places). If your opponent (lets call him bob) is facing you with his right leg/side forward, step forward with your left side forward behind him (so that you are both facing the same way only with you behind him). Reach your left arm over and grab his pants leg on his rear leg. Blend your hips so your movement also makes him move. Then use that lever/fulcrum to throw him backwards over your left leg/hip with a waist/hip rotation. This one works well on all sorts, even bigger folks. Of course it even works better with a head twisting control, but that isn't something that I can use. For those of you who can use head controls, I urge you to do so as "real" effective ways to make your throws work.

I also make good use of what in shuai-chiao is called the cracking throw. I don't know any HEMA or other Asian art references for it (although I am sure they exist). Grab bob's left arm and with your left hand (opposite side) and pull him forward. He should now be facing with his left side forward with your left hand grabbing his left wrist. Step forward and through, using your whole body weight (not your biceps) to hyper extend his left elbow and shoulder. You should now be standing in front of him, facing the same direction with his left arm overextended. Then simply continue the forward momentum for a easy takedown or use a backwards leg sweep and a leftward waist twist to help him get some air time (this involves some training).

One thing I like about these is that they are gross, whole body movements that you can mess up on small details under stress and they still work. That said, these are just the ones I like and have actually made work. If you train something else just as much and have more natural athleticism than me (which ain't hard) then there is no reason why you can't make trickier things work.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Just the normal stuff. We do have the ASP baton, which is a nasty little tool. I would still prefer a longsword, but I suppose that might look bad. Anyway, 90% of it involves talking with people and writing reports. Even the small part of being "hands on" is just that, empty hand stuff. My typing has improved dramatically. I wonder if you can do a Zornhau with a keyboard? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

yes, I can visualize those. My favorites can be seen in Rector's Talhoffer, plates 194 (L side figures), 203 (L side figures), 204 (L side figures), 217 (L side fitures), 219 (R side figures).

[Guest]

The ASP is an effective thing isn't it. Basically an expandable mace. We trained on riot batons that are nothing more than metal quater staffs. As you say, your most important "weapon" is people skills.