Egyptian Wrestling Images

[Mike Cartier]

Slightly off topic for us, but interesting none the less because it shows the sophistication of martial arts even way back into history.
This image is from a tomb dated around 2000 B.C. if I am not mistaken.
Egyptian Wrestling Image

[Casper Bradak]

Very cool. Many of them are the same as found in the medieval manuals, both techniques and grips.

[Casper Bradak]

They use the leg hook quite a bit in there...

[Jay Vail]

I am beginning to think that a good argument can be made for historical continuity of European wrestling stretching back several thousand years. There are, for instance, illustrations of wrestling techniques on Greek vases that are more than 2500 years old showing techniques that appear in Talhoffer and Auerswald and the Codex Wallerstein.

[Mike Cartier]

you can see many of the same techniques in this Ancient Pankration here Historical Pankration , that are used in modern combat sports like NHB or MMA.

The continuuity thing is a bit trickier, its been a common theory to link Greco-Roman wrestling to the ancient Greek wrestling, but i think this is false. I think the Greco-Roman wrestling lineage goes back trhough the western and northern European folks wrestling which is also all upper body wrestling to a throw.

I think modern freestyle wrestling is much more like the old Greek wrestling (this is all outlined in that article I gave you at the Florida gathering Jay).

Clearly the Egyptians had sophisticated wrestling techniques, linking them in lineage is very difficult however. Pankration is at least 2000 - 3000 years old and its influence is surely made its mark on many of the folk wrestlings around Europe, but the real question is how much of an influence? Many of the techniques and concepts of Pankration clearly did not make its way into other arts. So its a bit of a yes answer and a bit of a no answer.

[Jay Vail]

Mike, that Greek wrestling article is what got me thinking more about the subject of continuity. I tend to agree with you that Greek wrestling probably resembled modern freestyle, as long as you don’t define it as collegiate/Olympic freestyle. I’d say it was more like catch wrestling, which has a wider technique base than collegiate freestyle wrestling. But that’s a debatable matter.

I’ll also concede that you’re right about the continuity thing. It will hard, if not impossible to prove. But I’d like to think it is so -- at least as far as a connection between Greek wrestling and medieval kampfringen. There is a great deal of similarity of technique between the two. I’ve been collecting images from Greek art which show that similarity. At the next Central FL gettogether I’ll bring some of the books along to show you. It’s fascinating stuff, at least to me.

[Jack Lynn]

I think that type of continuity is quite possible. It also could be that the techniques that work tend to reappear.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Wow, that is sort of like a small fight-book of images. JH

[Jay Vail]

It also could be that the techniques that work tend to reappear.

Jack, yes, this is quite possible. Techniques could have been forgotten in Europe then reinvented. Many, if not most of the techniques of kampfringen appear in Japanese and Chinese systems of unarmed combat, as well as the martial systems in other countries. One cannot suppose a common root for all of them. Therefore, they must have been independently invented, and so could have been lost and reinvented in Europe. I'd like to think otherwise, but as yet we don't have a sufficient historical record to securely anchor an opinion.

[Casper Bradak]

I really doubt that there is any "direct" lineage of unarmed methods in europe, but I also very much doubt that any of the techniques were ever "forgotten". In fact I'm 100% convinced of the above.
But I absolutely think there is very strong continuity.
Though schools and masters died out, moved, and changed, I think the human race would've had to go extinct and then reappear for the techniques to do the same.
There must have always been people that learned from others, moving around, teaching, establishing schools, prducing students and teachers, etc.

[haydniuchisutton]

Great stuff <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

something that caught my eye is third row down just right of middle - one guy has tried to do some sort of tackle ('shoot' in modern terminology) and the other guy has sprawlled -except also turning his back... at least that is what it looks like. Never heard of anyone turning away whilst sprawling -I'll have to try it out some time.

and on the top line we even have a 'kimura'. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

thanks

[Matt Shields]

Does anyone have an idea if the black lines around the waist could be a belt? I don't know much about Ancient Egyptian art or wrestling, but I'm guessing it's probably just a way of representing the waist.

But say it is a belt; I'm pretty sure there is a move in Judo where you sprawl out with the side of your hips against the guys shoulders you use the opponents belt to roll the guy over into side mount. The placement of the hips and the way he is pushing the white figures head makes me think thatsthe objective of the technique haydniuchisutton pointed out. But I think the belt is essential to keep the hips in place, so maybe not.

What do you guys think?

[JeffGentry]

Hey Matt

It appear's to me that it is just a way of avoiding the shoot and escaping, and also being able to somewhat control the situation.

Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

Wallerstein shows a technique for when you shoot in and your opponent sprawls on you. You turn your back to him and shoot both of your legs to one side while trapping the arms; your opponent spills onto his head.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

It's got another where you crouch and roll him over you onto his back, under yours.