hi & book project

[haydniuchisutton]

Hi,

Thought I’d introduce myself. I come at RMA from the contemporary martial arts perspective –having studied numerous styles for 10 years -not the longest time but long enough to give a broad appreciation. I’m currently training in Mixed Martial Arts which is a modern format combining full-contact striking arts (boxing, kickboxing etc) with grappling arts (Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Sombo, wrestling etc).

There is of course a common perception in MA circles that what we do today is unique to Eastern martial arts. Being historians you all know that that is tosh. But the perception is out there.

I’m keen to find out more about historic Western unarmed methods and cross-reference them with modern Eastern martial arts.

In fact, I’m seriously considering a book project on the topic –fusing the old with the contemporary and bringing RMA to the minds of more MAists. With my background in MA and authoring/illustration skills I can help make a historic manual into something quite practical and accessible to the modern reader. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

For such a project I’d need a co-author who has the historical perspective. So if anyone reading this is up for considering such a project, please respond.

Looking forward to learning more,

Haydn

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, writing ain't my strongest suit (although reading is up there) but I would steer you to the manuals. One thing you will find is that similarity between EMA and WMA is uncanny. I got that shock when I saw an identical joint lock shown in Chinese MA, Japanese MA, German manuals and Italian manuals. IMO there is a certain universality. Go visit the manuals, become friends with them. Then ye won't need a co-author.

[haydniuchisutton]

Cheers,

I checked out the manuals previously to finding the forum; fascinating and very well presented. ARMA is great.

I’m no historian so any book I did where I talked about the history side or tried to translate anything would lack credibility –or be plagiarism. So I need a co-author if the project is to go ahead.

Big issue: what is the copyright status of the old manuals? –if I were to take the Hans Wurm manual, or the Johann Georg Passchen's manual and reproduce the plates in a book together with analysis and practical “how to” sequences and diagrams, would it breach a copyright?

Haydn

[Brian Hunt]

You have to contact the museum that has the original manuscript and get permission from them to publish, this will usually include an exchange of money plus a contract with the musuem. The words are not copywrited, but the pictures (being unique artworks) come under different copywrite laws.

good luck

Brian Hunt

GFS

[Mike Cartier]

i would start with reading <Combat Sports of the Ancient World' by Michael Poliakoff. its the standard work on the history of ancient minimal rules combat sport. pankration is the ancient version of todays MMA.

I also keep a website of classical sources of combat sports
Historical Pankration
i am in the process of working on a reconstruction of pankration so that I can test it out in a MMA like rules environment.

Some good manuals i would say would be, the "excellent art of wrestling" (dutch i think) here is a link to it.

Excellent Art of Wrestling

[haydniuchisutton]

good pankration project. Are you thinking of competing in mma with it? If so, good luck. But either way, good stuff.

Re the wrestling manual -interesting. Will take time to read through more thoroughly but seems very few throws. Some of the moves area bit faniciful -like kicking a knife out of someone's hand.... but others are very real world like the GnP bit early on. Do you think that maybe the author wasn't as down to earth as we might expect a 17th century wrestler to be?

Spinning hammerfist?

[Mike Cartier]

No i am too old to be competing in MMA really, (39), my brittle old bones would simply snap hehe.
But i want to put it in a Amateur MMA environment to give it a proper test.

I don't care too much forsome of the mediaval to renaissance wrestling stuff i have seen, some of it is good and is seen in every grappling art but some is not as good and i wouldn't put too much faith in it. So far the only old grappling stuff i have found i like is the Greek wrestling and pankration. i suppose thats my mma perspective though or perhaps it was the only sport of its kind that got thoroughly used inside and out by many people in a competitive environment across a large span of time. So the guts of the system tend to be very practical and free from anything not too high percentage.

Most of the ringen looks like what we would call BJJ self defense. Some of that too can be tricky, its not easy to get a big guys arm across your shoulder for an elbow break.

[haydniuchisutton]

comparred to MMA, I hear you. But some of it is good stuff - often better than many contemporay 'habits'. A good example is in the Petter Wrestling manual you linked, the knife defenses starts off pre-emptively -leap years ahead of many contemporary knife defence syllabus' (albeit common thinking in reality SD circles).

I don't think that there is any holy grail of super techniques hidden in these manuals -but just that it's interesting comparrision with contemporary MA.

Are looking for more MMAists to get involved in your pankration project?

[Mike Cartier]

Are looking for more MMAists to get involved in your pankration project?

yeah sorta, the whole project started as a MMA history kind of thing and mushroomed once i saw all the sources that actually existed. The whole reconstruction is being done openly on the website in bits and pieces so anyone with interest can pick it up where i leave off and reconstruct on their own. helps to have a background in some MMA of course, but i think anyone with a good martial base can do it.

So far i would say its more ground and pound oriented, and the kickboxing has a similar yet different flavor to muay thai

[Jay Vail]

Some of the moves area bit faniciful -like kicking a knife out of someone's hand....

Yes, it does seem fanciful, but I did it once as shown by Petter in freeplay. So perhaps it isn't so fanciful after all. Maybe the guy knew what he was writing about . . .

[haydniuchisutton]

If you kicked a real blade out of a real attackers hands, you're a braver man than me <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

Once got stabbed in the foot trying to kick a knife out of a guy's hand with a crescent kick. Petter showed a front kick.

Actually managed the front kick disarm myself but only in **free play**, not for real.