The "Americana" in Goliath Dagger

[Randall Pleasant]

Just wanted to share an observation that the arm-bar technique known as the "Americana" in modern BJJ is also found in the Dagger plays of Goliath. As you can see in the following image from Goliath the man on the right side of the image will be pushing his adversary's hand back while pulling the elbow out. The real damage from the throw over the right leg is not from hitting the ground but rather the breaking of the arm during the fall.

Any thoughts?

<img src="http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/191.jpg" width=500 height=600 ></img>

[Jay Vail]

This is an ancient technique that is found in all kinds of martial arts, not just BJJ, which got it from judo. It is a jujutsu staple, is in Chin na, and a version is illustrated by Fiore in the Flos Duellotorum.

I have done this technique hard against people, and in my opinion it is a bind, not a break when standing, and serves to get the guy on the ground. The fall does not cause the injury. Injury comes from cranking the bind. When he’s on the ground, the bind can be cranked until submission. Theoretically you could do some real damage to the guy, but normally he has to be already on the ground for that to occur because usually the guy can yield enough to avoid really lasting injury but once on the ground he has nowhere to run.

The technique depicted in Goliath is one of the upper keys. The bind works more on the shoulder than the elbow, as do the other “key” binds. See Talhoffer, plates 179 and 206 for an illustration of the lower key bind. The very same technique as in Goliath is also described, by the way, in the Codex Wallerstein (plate 137). Interestingly, the Codex describes this bind as part of a defense against a right punch to the head.

[Randall Pleasant]

Jay

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for pointing out that this technquie is also shown in the Codex Wallerstein.

I must disagree with your view that the goal of this technique is to throw the adversary to the ground rather than to break his arm. The text in both Goliath and the Codex Wallerstein talk of breaking the adversary’s arm, not throwing him to the ground. My view is that in both examples you should keep your body stright up while throwing the adversary over the right leg, thus using his own body weight to rip out his shoulder. Having not seen you perform this technique I can only guess that you have been able to perform this techniques hard against other people because you have performed it as a take down for submission rather than as an quick snapping of the arm &amp; shoulder. A take down for submission is, of course, the only safe was to practice this technique.

Likewise I think there are two different ways to perform the lower key technique that you mentioned. All of us who do not want to suffer a major injury practice this technique as it is shown in Plate 176 and Plate 179 of Talhoffer since the focus of this version is to take the adversary down rather than breaking his arm. The down side of this version is that it allows the counters shown in Talhoffer. On the other hand, the version of the technique shown in Plate 185 of Goliath and Plate 44 of the Codex Wallerstein appear to be focused on breaking the arm and shoulder of the adversary. In this version of the technique the adversary’s elbow is not push down rather it is stabilized high and the adversary’s right hand is pulled back, thus ripping out the shoulder. Keeping the adversary’s elbow in a high position also locks his shoulder and pervents him from turning to his left, thus he cannot perform the counters shown in Talhoffer.

[Jay Vail]

Having not seen you perform this technique I can only guess that you have been able to perform this techniques hard against other people because you have performed it as a take down for submission rather than as an quick snapping of the arm &amp; shoulder. A take down for submission is, of course, the only safe was to practice this technique.

Could be. I've never really dropped it on with totally savagery. Used Codex 44 in true fights when I was a kid (learned it when I was five or six from a kid who got it from his brother in the Marines). My experience with this was that people would fall before I got to the point where it would cause a break while they were standing. Once they were on the ground it's another story. You could "break" the shoulder when they were on the ground because they have nowhere to yield. Perhaps the text refers to this phenom. It's vague on when the break is to take place. But to be fair, I suppose you could apply enough force to the crank while they were standing to cause damage. Never done that though. We'll need feedback from others on this.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, here is my 2 cents. In general there are 2 ways to do a joint lock. 1. as a break or 2. as a control. If you it as a break, you very quickly snap it into place (like snapping a pencil). If you do it as a control you more gradually work in the same lock (it looks the same with the same movements) and use it to move the guy around or tap him out. In either case it is the same lock, the only difference being whether you from a proverbial 0-100mph in 1 second or from 0-60 in one minute in how fast you lock it in. The former leads to a break and the latter to a control.

In terms of direct examples, I recall one time I was practicing an EMA throw (which looks amazingly similar to one of Ringeck's things). First you lock up the joint and then you throw them. And the other guy rolls and gets back up with no injury. This time I got carried away and snapped into it with too much force putting torque on his elbow before the throw. His elbow was out of whack for a few days afterwards. And that was NOT using a full out "break it and throw him with it" intent.

I would suggest that you can use this particular either as a break (break the elbow and then throw him with it) OR as a contol, depending how fast you sink it in. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Cartier]

I agree with Jay, its a control position rather than a break.

This move is in many martial arts, I myself have seen it in, Kali/Escrima, Shootfighting, JiuJitsu, Judo, Silat and JKD.
Its also called a figure four and while it can inflict a break if the other person strinly resists, its usually used as a method of bringing someone under control either on the ground or standing.

In BJJ the submission version of this is on the ground where the opponents movement is miminmalized and your leverage is maximized.

I think the problem with it being a standing break is that it doesn't take much of a defensive response from the opponent to negate its leverage, this usually puts them at a balance disadvantage though which is much more productiv in terms of control, from there you are either over or on top of them, or can switch to weapons or strikes.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

The real damage from the throw over the right leg is not from hitting the ground but rather the breaking of the arm during the fall.

I also do alot of white water kayaking and the guy on the left of the picture is in the same position we tell people to not get into in a high brace because it is a very easy position to dislocate your shoulder, I have seen it happen on more than one occasion on the river and in the pool with people learning/practicing there roll.

When you get the arm in this position elbow straight out, hand up over the head, it is pretty much at it's maximum extension and realy doesn't have much more mobility, so quickly torqueing the hand will dislocate the shoulder elbow.

this i have no doubt of since i have seen it happen a few time's.


Jeff

[Jared L. Cass]

I'll chime in on this one too. Basically, what Jaron said <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

My added two cents though would be a note reguarding pretty much a sure fire way to dislocate/break. Namely: hyper extension of the targeted joint. This is the real "secret" to any joint destruction.

Using this technique as an example: even by not "quickly snapping it into place" ones chances for a break/dislocation are greater when the shoulder is "pulled" prior to the point of the opponent loosing balance and being thrown. (This is much easier to show and "feel" than explain)! It's true to any attack done to produce damage rather than control. This "secret" is why we can practice and spar to submission with these techniques in a relativily safe manner. Oie,this is probably making no sense (sigh).

Try it out next time you practice any type of joint attack. Do it in such a way as to throw/control ones opponent, then in such a way where you conciously "pull/tug" the joint abit out of where it wants to be just pror to the throw taking place. It doesn't have to be a real hard tug to feel the difference and quickly gives one an idea of the damage that would occure if done with "real intent".

On a side note, I agree that it is more the opponents own weight that causes the damage rather than me forcing them around. It's where one positions oneself that makes these techniques work...just like in all aspects of this art:) In grappling, you keep one part more or less "stationary" and let the rest of the body twist around it or vice versa.

If anybody's lucky enoufgh to test cut on say a deer or pig or so, be sure to try out some of these breaks on the joints befor cutting them off! It's a great experience and if you work on hyper extending a joint befor breaking/dislocating it, you'll see a huge difference from just trying to break it with out the tug/pull. Or, go to a butcher and watch/talk to them on how they do certain parts of their job (butchers call a part of their job "jointing"...and there's a reason for this!)

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jared, This reminds me of when we got together in Wausau--Keeping in mind that I outweigh Jared by about 50lbs, Jared was still able to throw me to the ground very forcibly using my own weight against me. If Jared had placed this type of lock on me then threw me I have no doubts that my shoulder joint would have been destroyed. I think these high blocking locks are always much better applied as quick movements coupled with throws. You are just too open to be standing there cranking on it, slowly. The other guy can poke eyes, rake the face kick etc.. done at speed though there is not much time.

As an aside we just practiced some of these throws, and training with Gary Lewis who outweighs me by about 50lbs, is always a treat. Anyway I applied a good lock on his shoulder and threw him back using his own weight, which layed him out well, also knocking the wind out of him in addition to the stress on the shoulder,(we were careful to let up on it), I cannot imagine the destruction to the joints full-on.

Having said that I think whoever mentioned the on the ground version is right on and given that added dimension it would be a hellofa hold/bar. -Aaron

[Randall Pleasant]

Aaron Pynenberg wrote:
I think these high blocking locks are always much better applied as quick movements coupled with throws. You are just too open to be standing there cranking on it, slowly.

I fully agree. The translation (by Kirk Siemsem) that I am working from makes clear that these techniques were applied are very quick and very powerfully. Although they may include a throw, the key-lock techniques are described as arm &amp; shoulder breaks rather than as throws. In regard to the technique discussed in this thread you really don't want to throw the adversary directly onto his back, that would force you to get on the ground with him. Instead, if you stay standing stright, keeping his arm high during the throw his weight is on his shoulder and the lower part of his body is able to travel farther under his shoulder, thus doing more damage.

[Jay Vail]

Ran said: I must disagree with your view that the goal of this technique is to throw the adversary to the ground rather than to break his arm. The text in both Goliath and the Codex Wallerstein talk of breaking the adversary’s arm, not throwing him to the ground.

To be fair, Ran, I’ve been slowly working through Joachim Meyer’s dagger plays. He describes techniques similar to the one illustrated above, and he says they can be used to “break” the arm. Perhaps the old masters dropped the technique on so hard and fast while the guy was standing that it ruptures the shoulder. Or maybe they did the damage when the guy was on the ground. That is unclear. But you appear to be correct, based on what the treatises say, that the old masters viewed it is a means to break the arm.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jay

Perhaps the old masters dropped the technique on so hard and fast while the guy was standing that it ruptures the shoulder.

I have been looking at some catch wrestling stuff lately, and i am of the opinion that if you do it the way it is pictured you could break the forearm in that standing position, or at the least do damage to the elbow.

Jeff

[Kirk Siemsen]

After we translated the Dagger Section of Goliath, we quickly found out the importance of "stepping with your right leg behind the opponent's right." This step is not to throw your opponent, but to keep him from stepping away to ease the tension that you're applying on his arm! There is no twisting of the arm, but instead a quick downard drive. Try it! You'll feel it!

[Andrew Kesterson]

I agree this is a very familiar technique. The technique appears very similar to Oni Kudaki, a Ninjutsu lock. There appears to be only a minor variation in the hand positioning.

I also agree it's a break, not a lock or throw. There is a throw involved of sorts; at least, there is with Oni Kudaki. The literal translation is "breaking the demon's shoulder". The pressure is put unto the lock by walking right past the opponent's right side while you're holding the lock, and he's got nowhere to go. Even if you just walk straight back, most people can't back up with you and will just fall. The usual result is that tori winds up with a broken shoulder, and uke never even has to drop to a knee if he doesn't want to.

[Randall Pleasant]

Kirk

Great to hear from you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I was wondering if you had fallen off the edge of the world. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I will drop you a private message.